At this point I'm just going to throw this out there and let others decide the matter for themselves.

Symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder, per the DSM IV:

• Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
  
• Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
  
• Envies others and believes others envy him/her
  
• Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
  
• Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
  
• Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
  
• Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

Some of these can be spun to apply to Asuka, but overall I see one trait on that list that meaningfully describes her (that being arrogance, which she has in spades). Her expectations aren't unrealistic (because she does have superior accomplishments to her credit), she doesn't really care about attention and admiration from others (at least not her peers), envy isn't really part of her mindset (though you can certainly spin her relationship with Misato that way), and she can definitely empathize with others (see eps. 18-19).

Other symptoms in addition to the ones defined by DSM-IV-TR include: Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends, has trouble keeping healthy relationships with others, easily hurt or rejected, appears unemotional, and exaggerating special achievements and talents, setting unrealistic goals for himself/herself.

None of that particularly applies to Asuka, save perhaps being easily hurt or rejected. She doesn't take advantage of/exploit people (she tries with Kaji, but that's about it), she has no trouble maintaining a healthy relationship with Hikari, her talents and achievements are not exaggerated, and no one would call her unemotional.


Symptoms of histrionic personality disorder, again per the DSM IV:

• Exhibitionist behavior
  
• Constant seeking of reassurance or approval
  
• Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval
  
• Pride of own personality and unwillingness to change, viewing any change as a threat
  
• Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior of a sexual nature
  
• Using somatic symptoms (of physical illness) to garner attention
  
• A need to be the center of attention
  
• Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification
  
• Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear superficial or exaggerated to others
  
• Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are
  
• Making rash decisions
  
• Blaming personal failures or disappointments on others
  
• Being easily influenced by others, especially those who treat them approvingly
  
• Being overly dramatic and emotional

Some of that's iffy, but overall I see two items on that list that don't apply to Asuka (she doesn't use illness to get attention and she's not an exhibitionist). Everything else is spot on.

For Narcissism:

Expects to be recognized as superior and special[s], without superior accomplishments[/s]:
Expecting to be recognised as superior and special would suffice in Asuka's case. A narcissist is capable of achieving things too - of course we know this applies to Asuka. Having said accomplishments would only enhance the narcissism.

Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others:
Yep, she definitely wants all of them.

Envies others and believes others envy him/her?
Envies Misato for Kaji's affections, considers herself the most popular girl in school and expects Shinji (and presumably others) to be grateful for her presence.

[s]Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence:[/s]
Though she is obsessed with being a strong independent woman who doesn't rely on anyone else. I'll still cross it out.

[s]Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others[/s]:
While I don't think this one applies to her, she does seem to take issue with conflicting approaches to life, but she does show kindness at points like going to a vegetarian friendly place for Rei. Though this could be seen as the "great Asuka" being benevolent. So I may be tempted to uncross it. Nah.

Is arrogant in attitudes and behaviour:
Speaks for itself.

Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic:
Expecting Shinji to move out when she moves in, hates having her clothes washed with Shinji's and Misato's, hates sharing their bath and toilet.

Is interpersonally exploitative:
Wanted to use Kaji to validate herself as a woman, the only time she sleeps at Hikari's place is when she can't face going home.

Has trouble keeping healthy relationships with others:
Her along with the rest of the cast. Goes for an older man who won't reciprocate, can't just be forthright with Shinji; plays mind games that get her nowhere with him; thinks her and Rei should be friends because it's "convenient", is jealous of her guardian and so resents her somewhat.

Easily hurt or rejected:
Every time Shinji surpasses her; whenever a male she likes doesn't react as she wants, when Eva-01 was taken out of its suspended state to help Rei when not for Asuka. She takes this very personal. When Rei tells her to open her heart to the Eva it's taken as an insult or a slight. Her ego is notoriously fragile.

[s]Appears unemotional[/s]:
Doesn't apply, she's certainly emotional.

Exaggerating special achievements and talents:
Boasts how she's the first to pilot a "true Evangelion", boasts about her synch ratio, says "not just taller--my figure has filled out, too." to Misato. It's all about being recognised; even if it is true, she's excessively bragging. Though not quite the same, but in a similar vein (with the same vein) during the black out episode she took the lead as she was "most qualified" in her eyes; when Rei actually appeared to know.

[s]setting unrealistic goals for himself/herself:[/s]
Doesn't really apply because she has had success, but she does seem to think she should be better than Shinji just "because" and not through her working at it and heading advice of others. That implies if she wasn't successful, her expectations would still be up there regardless. Is also obsessed with being considered a woman when she's still a child, that's somewhat unrealistic, right? Plus expecting that she should lead the trio in the black out episode despite having no clue, getting frustrated when shown to fail.



For histrionic personality disorder:

[s]Exhibitionist behaviour:[/s]

[s]Constant seeking of reassurance or approval:[/s]
Asuka is looking for praise and adoration, not approval or reassurance for her actions.

Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval:
I can't think of a situation she is criticised directly, I'll come back to this.

Pride of own personality [s]and unwillingness to change, viewing any change as a threat:[/s]
She does exhibit this, but it falls into narcissism. She's quite alright with change. She moved to Japan and happily moved in with Misato and eventually got used to living with Shinji.

[s]Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior of a sexual nature:[/s]
Only towards one man who will further her delusions of being a woman. Just like she isn't an exhibitionist she isn't overtly sexual for the sake of being overtly sexual. She has an agenda with Kaji; she's even quite appalled at Misato in reality; Asuka is not really overly sexual at all. In any case, this point could apply to billions of average women.

[s]Using somatic symptoms (of physical illness) to garner attention:[/s]

A need to be the center of attention:
Works with narcissism also.

Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification:
Yes. This is a given.

[s]Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear superficial or exaggerated to others:[/s]
We see her gradual decline; she has out-bursts but they don't appear superficial or exaggerated in anyone's eyes. She's quite a consistent character.

[s]Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are:[/s]
She's completely aware she's not in a relationship with Kaji and he's interested in Misato, she's not deluded in this respect.

[s]Making rash decisions:[/s]
Not a defining characteristic of hers, no more than anyone else.

Blaming personal failures or disappointments on others:
She does do this, until it gets to the point she starts talking about how much she hates herself. It's more snide remarks about "wonder girl" and "super Shinji" than it is blaming them for her mistakes. But she did blame Shinji instead of herself during the episode where they had to work in unison.

[s]Being easily influenced by others, especially those who treat them approvingly:[/s]
She's quite sure of who she is (Or rather, who she wants to be), is the "popular girl in school" and doesn't follow others.

Being overly dramatic and emotional:
Yes, see: Easily hurt or rejected.


Sorry for how long this turned out, I'm not sure if it's in violation of anything; but it's not spam or trolling, so I don't imagine it should be. I'll flesh it out when I get around to watching the series for a second time, I'll probably just start at episode 8 tomorrow or something. I'm sure more can be said of each point.

Bagheera wrote:DSM IV

My Merck Manual bases its discussion of personality disorders on the newer DSM-5. In this, Histrionic is no longer a classification, but is subsumed into Borderline personality disorder, with a note that such patients "may share the emotional volatility and instability in relationships".

Using the descriptions in the Merck Manual, Asuka is closer to Narcissistic ("...an exaggerated sense of superiority, and expect to be treated with deference") than Borderline ("relentlessly seek care and are sensitive to its perceived absence"). There are some misses in the first but more in the second.

But I'm not going into any further detail, because it's rather pointless arguing about the name when we can simply look at the symptoms themselves and the outcome in the series.

True. It's funny; I always thought Asuka was in danger of going the borderline route, as her problems and experiences seemed to be fertile ground for such a transition. Guess that's not surprising given the route the DSM V took (though I understand the reclassifications are highly controversial in many cases; I don't know about this particular example, but I know folding Asperger's into Autism got a lot of people riled, and my own shrink seems to have a dim opinion of it (though in his case it's because the reclassifications make insurance billing a nightmare, something I didn't expect).

pwhodges wrote:My Merck Manual bases its discussion of personality disorders on the newer DSM-5. In this, Histrionic is no longer a classification, but is subsumed into Borderline personality disorder, with a note that such patients "may share the emotional volatility and instability in relationships".

So my opinion that histrionic personality disorder seems wholly redundant--and therefore holds little weight as its own classification--was shared by the same medical community that was thrown in my face about how my opinion means so very little because they say so and I lack insight on these matters? Have I got this right?

Bigmouth strikes again and I've got no right to take my place amidst the human race.


Anyway, to PWHodges: I'm actually very curious about this Merck Manual. Does it go hand in hand with the DSM-5 that was mentioned? I believe 2013 is the most up to date? Also, where did you pick one up if I may ask?

P.S. nice display picture, it has a good composition.

Merck is one of the major pharmaceutical companies. The Merck Manual started life over a century ago as a summary of the medical effects and uses of the readily available drugs which they supplied. Over the years it has developed into an encyclopaedic summary of medical knowledge, containing descriptions of most recognised illnesses and information on their medical treatment.

When I started my present job (working in a group running drug trials) our largest trial was of a Merck drug, and they had donated a copy of their 2000 edition of the Manual for each member of the team - which came with a replica of the 1900 edition. I found it useful, and more recently bought a copy of the iPhone version (Pro; not Home, which is a simplified edition). Each year or so this updates at no extra cost :-) , which is why I had the recent information on this matter to hand.

(And borrowing my mod hat from my other forum: you'd best lay off the personal remarks if you don't want the mods here to take an interest in you! [hastily puts mod hat away again before I annoy them myself])

The fact it updates itself every year is reason enough to buy it. Unfortunately I've never owned so much as a phone, let alone an iPhone, so I'm trying to think of a shop that may sell a copy. Do you still own the replica version? I don't know why but that seems like a rather appealing thing to own--in a strange way--and I suspect you agree.

pwhodges wrote:(And borrowing my mod hat from my other forum: you'd best lay off the personal remarks if you don't want the mods here to take an interest in you! [hastily puts mod hat away again before I annoy them myself])

The bigmouth in question is actually myself. Don't worry, I'm not to stoop to direct name calling... yet?

It's more appropriate to use the DSM IV for Asuka since she appears to have been designed from the ground up to exhibit all those symptoms.

She's not a real person, she's a fictional character. No real life person fits all of the diagnostic criteria for any disorder.

And yet she fits into the criteria for narcissism quite a bit more in the DSM IV information that Bagheera provided.

Narcissism is far more widely known than histrionic personality disorder - far more. It appears she was made with narcissism in mind.

Sorrow wrote:And yet she fits into the criteria for narcissism quite a bit more in the DSM IV information that Bagheera provided.

Except she doesn't. Look, narcissism is basically megalomania -- that's what it used to be called -- and that isn't Asuka's gig at all. She's not pre-occupied with power fantasies, she isn't bent on making the world revolve around her, and everything that actually applies re: narcissism is overlap with HPD. The distinctive bits about NPD aren't there, while the distinctive bits about HPD are.

As Mr. Tines noted earlier in this thread (the one to which this discussion was appended, a discussion back in 2009):

Mr. Tines wrote:One has to bear in mind that Asuka will have been encouraged in all those traits during her childhood -- she was the special and unique person at NERV Germany, no doubt treated like a warrior-aristocrat knight-in-training; and besides that, a bona fide intellectual prodigy.

In the same way that it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you, it's not narcissism when you actually have the documentation to prove that you are the special one.

That's why it doesn't really fit.

Narcissism is far more widely known than histrionic personality disorder - far more. It appears she was made with narcissism in mind.

To you, perhaps. Not to most others who've seen fit to comment on the matter. People often say narcissist at first, but once they're made aware of HPD most tend to agree it's a better fit. Some don't, but I can count them on one hand (those who've spoken on the matter in these forums, I mean).

But anyway, Paul's earlier comment was spot on IMO. I'm not sure what this back and forth ultimately gets us when it comes to understanding the character and her motivations.

Bagheera wrote:But anyway, Paul's right -- focusing on the label is a distraction, which is why psycholgists tend not to diagnose people with specific disorders these days. This is a good example of why doing so is problematic.

You can't give a retort and then go on to say "but yeah, it's pointless discussing this"; it makes you a hypocrite. You're either willing to argue your case or you're not. You can't tell me I'm wrong then expect me not to reply because you think it's a pointless argument suddenly; it doesn't hold.

Bagheera wrote:Except she doesn't. Look, narcissism is basically megalomania -- that's what it used to be called -- and that isn't Asuka's gig at all. She's not pre-occupied with power fantasies, she isn't bent on making the world revolve around her, and everything that actually applied re: narcissism is overlap with HPD. The distinctive bits about NPD aren't there, while the distinctive bits about HPD are.

Narcissism is not megalomania--megalomania is a whole other field trip. It's as if you ignored all I wrote in the point for point; can't find a refute for any of it; but still hold otherwise and insist on telling me as such with nothing substantial.

Bagheera wrote:As Mr. Tines noted earlier in this thread (the one to which this discussion was appended, a discussion back in 2009)

I'm afraid Mr. Tines is wrong. The reason is that it implies a narcissist is incapable of success/successful people are incapable of narcissism. Narcissism can be more apparent in the successful as they find more and more to brag about, even more reason to be narcissistic.

Patrick Bateman from American psycho is a notorious narcissist--if you try and refute this then you're simply arguing for the sake of it--and sociopath. He is very successful; he is charming and intelligent. It doesn't stop his sense of entitlement, inflated ego and all the rest of it.

Dorian Gray (probably my favourite narcissist as it were) is very charming, well liked, has an almost ethereal appearance of beauty. He is also self entitled, self obsessed and looks upon others as pieces to serve his existence.

Asuka: "if I can't have you all to myself, then I don't want ANYTHING from you."

The fact you are those things doesn't change an "unhealthy mind" -- how many spoilt rich characters with an askew sense of entitlement can you think of? They are rich and often are successful. They're still narcissistic.

Bagheera wrote:To you, perhaps. Not to most others who've seen fit to comment on the matter. People often say narcissist at first, but ONCE they're made aware of HPD most tend to agree it's a better fit. Some don't, but I can count them on one hand (those who've spoken on the matter in these forums, I mean).

What was it I said again? Oh yeah: "Narcissism is far more widely known than histrionic personality disorder - far more."

In your attempt to prove me blind, you proved me right and contradicted yourself in the process. Not to mention it only seems to be around here everyone buys into the histrionic personality disorder, I feel a sense of kinship among many of you. For what it's worth: TVtropes considers Asuka a narcissist.

Oh yeah, and PWHodges--am I allowed to call you Paul? I feel perhaps I need to earn it?--kindly pointed out to us that histrionic personality disorder now seems to be considered rather redundant as its own classification.

Sorrow wrote:Narcissism is not megalomania--megalomania is a whole other field trip.

It . . . what? No, it's not. This is historical fact -- NPD used to be called megalomania, and the latter term isn't even used anymore. They're the same thing. Look it up if you don't believe me.

It's as if you ignored all I wrote in the point for point; can't find a refute for any of it; but still hold otherwise and insist on telling me as such with nothing substantial.

I can't refute it because you keep twisting everything to suit you. You cross out part of a criterion and say it fits, you claim envy applies because of the Misato/Kaji relationship but then claim inappropriate sexual displays doesn't even though Asuka literally threw herself at Kaji (to say nothing of all the stuff with Shinji), and you repeatedly say that applicable material from the HPD criteria that isn't mentioned in the NPD description nonetheless applies to NPD.

It's clear to me that you're using very different definitions of the terms than I am, and that makes fruitful discussion on the matter impossible.

What was it I said again? Oh yeah: "Narcissism is far more widely known than histrionic personality disorder - far more."

You seem to have missed the point of that remark. Narcissism is indeed more widely known, which is why people are more likely to misapply it. Once I show them HPD they usually agree it's a better fit. How widely the disorder is known isn't really relevant when discussing whether or not it's a good fit for a character; the criteria are what matters.

Oh yeah, and PWHodges--am I allowed to call you Paul? I feel perhaps I need to earn it?--kindly pointed out to us that histrionic personality disorder now seems to be considered rather redundant as its own classification.

It's considered that by the folks who made the DSM-V, yes, but as I noted that was a controversial decision (one of many that group made, which has ruffled an awful lot of feathers in the psychology community). In any event the end result there is that Asuka doesn't fit much of anything as far as disorders go -- she's just a fucked up kid with pride and abandonment issues, which is perhaps the best way to view her.

Bagheera wrote:It . . . what? No, it's not. This is historical fact -- NPD used to be called megalomania, and the latter term isn't even used anymore. They're the same thing. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I never said it wasn't an old term for narcissism, I said they're not the same thing (as in currently). I was unaware megalomania isn't considered a thing anymore, I'll do some reading, beyond Wikipedia. However it has always seemed to be associated with a much more inflated sense of self, omnipotence is even mentioned here. But I'll happily concede this point after further reading.

I'll break the next section down, what Bagheera said will be in bold.

I can't refute it because you keep twisting everything to suit you. You cross out part of a criterion and say it fits:
Because I was applying all the points to Asuka's situation, and everything we see of her. I've explained in abundance why it is besides the point whether she is actually successful or not. I also partially crossed out one in HPD because the second half doesn't apply Asuka. She is clearly fine with change. She does have pride of personality (which does seem to be a narcissistic trait also) but the latter half of it doesn't apply to Asuka; HPD or Narcissism - It's redundant.

You claim envy applies because of the Misato/Kaji's relationship:
Because it does.

Then claim inappropriate sexual displays doesn't even though Asuka literally threw herself at Kaji (to say nothing of all the stuff with Shinji):
Shinji is her own age, it's hardly inappropriate; and what she does do with Shinji is by no means overtly sexual. She doesn't want sexual attention for the sake it; she wants it for her sense of self image - she wants the man Kaji to recognise/initiate her as a woman. If that was the case she would lap it up from anyone. It need not be said again.

And you repeatedly say that applicable material from the HPD criteria that isn't mentioned in the NPD description nonetheless applies to NPD:
Because it does overlap with narcissism, which isn't surprising considering they're closely related. Not all of them do; but the ones I noted, yes.

Bagheera wrote:You seem to have missed the point of that remark. Narcissism is indeed more widely known, which is why people are more likely to misapply it. Once I show them HPD they usually agree it's a better fit. How widely the disorder is known isn't really relevant when discussing whether or not it's a good fit for a character; the criteria are what matters.

Bagheera wrote:To you, perhaps. Not to most others who've seen fit to comment on the matter. People often say narcissist at first [...]

I'm afraid I hadn't missed the point of that remark, you were implying from the get go I'm in the minority of my observation that narcissism is far more widely known.

Bagheera wrote:It's considered that by the folks who made the DSM-V, yes, but as I noted that was a controversial decision (one of many that group made, which has ruffled an awful lot of feathers in the psychology community).

You actually said:

Bagheera wrote:(though I understand the reclassifications are highly controversial in many cases; I don't know about this particular example [...]

Also, why is it okay for you to go against what's said in the DSM-V because it may be controversial but you practically slapped my wrist for considering something a flaw in the--apparently precious--DSM-IV?

Bagheera wrote:In any event the end result there is that Asuka doesn't fit much of anything as far as disorders go -- she's just a fucked up kid with pride and abandonment issues, which is perhaps the best way to view her.

I would like to agree, however I do think that it seems well noted by the community that Anno intentionally tried to apply different mental disorders to different characters? If so, then Asuka's is narcissism.
Perhaps, also, you should state this before trying to push your view onto me. After all, it was you who insisted on correcting me about her narcissism on more than one occasion before I bit.

Guys. Chill out. Now.

We've got this a few times now and while I can't speak for Bagheera, I really want to state I'm not feeling aggressive or angry... I'm simply debating as effectively as I can. I may make a little remark - but I usually do so because I find it humorous; likewise when I point out something I believe to be contradictory. Not because I'm riled up and intend to offend.

In the wider world, debating should not be about winning, but persuading. Very often you will fail to do this; move on. Sometimes, coming back to the point, just from time to time, and presenting your view in different contexts might have a persuasive cumulative effect; but who can tell until it's all over?

pwhodges wrote:In the wider world, debating should not be about winning, but persuading. Very often you will fail to do this; move on. Sometimes, coming back to the point, just from time to time, and presenting your view in different contexts might have a persuasive cumulative effect; but who can tell until it's all over?

Yeah, that's sound advice. Resisting the urge to hit "submit" is a good trait to cultivate, if one can manage it. It can be tough sometimes though.

Bagheera wrote:She's a histrionic type, actually. Narcissists seek power, which is very much not her thing.

When I read the HPD page, I often have to stretch my imagination to make her fit, but when I read the NPD page I find myself nodding my head repeatedly. There's traits she's missing from either page but the ones she's missing from the HPD category number much higher compared to the misses on the NPD page, and this is assuming we can really diagnose a fictional character at all about whom we see little enough that you yourself have called her (along with the rest of the cast, to give more context) a cipher, let alone anything more precisely than a cluster.

Monk Ed wrote:When I read the HPD page, I often have to stretch my imagination to make her fit, but when I read the NPD page I find myself nodding my head repeatedly. There's traits she's missing from either page but the ones she's missing from the HPD category number much higher compared to the misses on the NPD page, and this is assuming we can really diagnose a fictional character at all about whom we see little enough that you yourself have called her (along with the rest of the cast, to give more context) a cipher, let alone anything more precisely than a cluster.

Swap every instance of HPD and NPD in this statement and it'll be accurate. You're falling for the persona she presents, and not accounting for what she reveals to us later in the show. Literally the only criterion of the former that doesn't fit Asuka is faking illness to gain attention. By contrast . . . well, look:

• Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
  
• Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
  
• Envies others and believes others envy him/her
  
• Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
  
• Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
  
• Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
  
• Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

The only traits that apply to Asuka are a thirst for attention (which overlaps with HPD) and arrogance. She expects to be recognized as superior because she is superior. She's an Eva pilot, one of the elite, and this is established fact. She doesn't envy anyone, she isn't preoccupied with power fantasies, she doesn't lack empathy, and she doesn't have unrealistic expectations of special treatment. Simply put, she isn't on a power trip -- she just expects to be given her due, in accordance with the line of BS Nerv Berlin has fed her all her life. But underneath all of that she hates herself and just wants to be praised and recognized as an adult. That's her ultimate goal -- get recognition so that people will take her seriously and not cast her aside like they did her mom. That's a preoccupation with attention (HPD), not power (NPD).

It might help to think of Narcissism under its former name: megalomania. Once that clicks it's easy to see NPD has nothing to do with her character.