Does Sadamoto Ship Rei or Asuka?

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Postby Stryker » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:47 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Look, if loving a clone of your mom is wrong, I don't wanna be right.


I'm just going to hold on to this, thank you.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:34 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:You'd think Q would have killed this whole "It's just because she looks like Yui" thing stone dead. (At very least once he names Yui along with Gendo and Misato as people he can no longer trust, right after lamenting her demise)

Just a little precision, Shinji didn't included his mother on the list of people he can't trust :
01:11:45 {Shinji} You say that, but my father, Evas, Misato-san...
01:11:48 {Shinji} I can't believe in anyone, or anything!

He doesn't know if his mother willingly got absorbed by EVA-01, hell thanks to his memory wipe he doesn't remember a thing from her except her scent, he doesn't have any reason to not trust her, since she's pretty much inexistent in his life.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:09 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Just a little precision, Shinji didn't included his mother on the list of people he can't trust :


But there's another scene. Just after he confronts ReiQ, realizes he didn't save "his" Rei. and walks down the brainfuckey corridor.
You might not hear it over all the replayed quotes, but amids all of this, he quietly goes, "Father... Mother... Misato-san...." with... "dissapointment" or "dillusionment" aren't quite the words, that would be something that would come from the perspective of someone who knows they were wronged and are standing on some sort of a basis.
Maybe, "shocked disbelief." is appropiate, the main notion being "All these people whom Ib thought of as my parents that I love are lying to me and manipulating me, I've got no one to turn to."

As very least, he seems to be putting her in the same cathegory as someone he just learned is plotting to destroy the world, and a person whom he last remembers treating him like an object and trying to kill him (heck, since poor Shinji witnessed certain things, but not others (such as the not pulling the trigger thing) and he's generally got a pessimistic disposition and abandonment issues, he may very well think that Misato never cared about him to begin with and just turned on him when he stopped being an useful tool.).

Even with the other quote probably files Yui under "EVAs", which leads to...


View Original PostElMariachi wrote:He doesn't know if his mother willingly got absorbed by EVA-01


No, but he now knows that his mom, the one person who he thought may have loved him back before everything turned to shit, is one and the same with the scary world destroying monster he associates with suffering, dependence, and worse, the worst nightmare of anyone who lacks the most minuscule shred of confidence that they can do things without fucking them up: horrible power that just breaks things by just existing and being used, like an elephant in a porcellain shop. Things like little Sakura, or the whole goddamn biosphere.

And even more, he knows that she built it, worked out the theory behind it, proposed the experiments... was an actual player here.

Classic!Shinji's reaction to Ritsuko saying "Human Souls are in there" was more among the lines of, "Fuck you dad, what are you DOING with mom (and Rei), people are not your personal guinnea pigs!" and probably by implication concluding that he's just a guinnea pig to Gendo as well.

But the thing is, untill rebuild or manga Shinji, he didn't have Fuyutsuki/Kaji to clarify his initial misconception that Yui was purely a victim who was made a lab rat by Gendo. He was never told that Yui was actually one of the big thinkers behind the plan.

There are several manga chapters (some of the better scenes, relatively speaking) devoted to just how unsettling the whole thing is to him, allthough this taking place pre-bardiel, the focus is mostly on the Gendo related bits, it doesn't help that Manga!Gendo has his very own jerkitude levels/essentially switched what little "fiirm directed antiheroic moments" he had for a "dark side will make you forget" characterization.

If you consider the bare information content, the two infodumps aren't that different, (minus the Rei related parts), the basic gist being "Your mom built the EVAs, you were present/never were an "ordinary highschool student" to begin with, and your dad is plotting the apocalypse", allthough the context, and thus the impact of the conversations is markedly different.

Of course, Manga!Kaji did the reveal with a message of "Your Dad is probably a jerk, but you have this other legacy, too, and you might want to live up to it/become a more active player here since you're holding the levers", while Fuyu is less transparent, but certainly makes no attempt to guide the poor kid.
He may be well intentioned and just wanting to give him information he thinks Yui would want him to have, or he may be trying to win Shinji over to their side ("...the world can be restored no more than time can be reversed, and this is why your dad works so hard to- "); His last line might even suggest a degree of deliberate breaking.

"You were never ordinary to begin with" took the floor out under Manga!Shinji, but Q!Shinji is supposed to be 28, and got his humanity called into question at that point...
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:28 am

The names he says during the brainfuckey corridor scene might also be calls for help, during this scene he's basically like a little child completely losing his mind and calling out the first names that goes through his head, like in episode 15 when he called for help to everyone after Leliel absorbed it.

Besides if the name he cited was with a tone of "dissapointment" or "disillusionment", why would he call for his mother first, and then talk about the "Evas"(in plural) to Kaworu?

But I guess that both interpretations can work...


And Fuyutsuki's infodump was clearly to break Shinji, a mind broken and delusional Shinji was vital for Gendo's plans, and the way the revelations were delivered were tailored to make the maximum damages on his mind(was showing him rows of dozens of severed Rei heads to mark Fuyutsuki point about Rei being a clone really necessary? Was there really no other way to tell him and make him believe it?)
Hell, once Shinji left, Fuyutsuki even complained that he played a "wretched role", meaning that he was told to make that mind-shattering revelation! And I doubt Yui planed to make Fuyu tell to Shinji everything like that, even if Fuyu is seen "hoping" to her that it'll be enough.(it could mean "I hope that it'll be enough to overthrow SEELE and leave us free to initiate our own HIP to be reunited with you)
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:02 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote: why would he call for his mother first,



He actually mentions Gendo first. If that was a call for help, then Yui and Misato have really fallen...
Gendo usually comes last.
Well, Yui did come after him in ep 16, but that's when he still thought she was dead.

The tone/thought/feeling of, "Where do I turn to, where can I get help..." is certainly present in that scene, but the people mentioned are probably better discribed as people he can no longer come to for help.

Note that it's different from the classic series instances you mention in that only parental figures are mentioned, not, say, his fellow pilots or Ritsuko. (Sure, there's no realistic help to be expected from, say, Asuka but... was there in EoE? )

Still Kaji isn't in there, but admittedly, he's probably dead. By Shinji's hand. At least not as much of a current part of his sphere of being as Misato and Gendo are.

Still, my personal guess would be that they're in order of "can-no-longer-trust-ness", hence obviously starting with Gendo.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:and then talk about the "Evas"(in plural) to Kaworu?


'Cause neo nerv is offering him a shiny new one!
...which does not look any more trustworthy than Unit One.

As for Fuyu, he certainly is no angel here. But maybe we should get back to the manga...
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:14 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:He actually mentions Gendo first. If that was a call for help, then Yui and Misato have really fallen...
Gendo usually comes last.
Well, Yui did come after him in ep 16, but that's when he still thought she was dead.

No no, that's not what I meant : in the first scene, when he's hallucinating, Shinji calls for his mother. Then in the second scene while talking to Kaworu, he mention that he can't trust "the Evas" instead of his mother?

View Original PostKendrix wrote:'Cause neo nerv is offering him a shiny new one!
...which does not look any more trustworthy than Unit One.

Which is what I said : Shinji says that he can't trust any Eva in general(and even less the ones coming from neo-NERV), not just the one with his mother's soul in it.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Mr. Jive » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:10 am

Sadamoto probaly never like the idea of S/A as a couple but went along whit the flow because he knew how crazy and insane the shippers were behind those two. The fact that it was Asuka who strangle Shinji in the manga this time is proof of that. If anything sadamoto would rather put Asuka whit kensuke. :wink:


Either way I have no problem how he handle Shinji relationship whit both eva pilots. Even in the anime Shinji favor Rei over Asuka anyway.

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Postby Doublegee » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:05 pm

I think I prefer the manga specifically for this reason.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:50 pm

View Original PostMr. Jive wrote:Sadamoto probaly never like the idea of S/A as a couple but went along whit the flow because he knew how crazy and insane the shippers were behind those two. The fact that it was Asuka who strangle Shinji in the manga this time is proof of that. If anything sadamoto would rather put Asuka whit kensuke. :wink:


Either way I have no problem how he handle Shinji relationship whit both eva pilots. Even in the anime Shinji favor Rei over Asuka anyway.


I don't think the the actual actors think of it in the terms of "Best girl!!!!111!!!" but seeing the plot as a whole/ the characters as tools of expression.
Rei just got a tragic ending for tragedy's own sake, that doesn't mean everything that came before is unimportant.
It was tearjerking/touching enough I almost forgave Sadamoto all his earlier transgressions...


As for Anime Shinji and Asuka, I wouldn't call tha constellation love either, but I don't think it's right to say that he just cares about her less. They're different people, so the relations, and relation dynamics/mechanics you're going to have with them are going to be just as different.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:37 pm

I wouldn't call Rei's ending tragic. She evolved into a fifth dimensional space god. That's actually kind of cool.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:09 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I wouldn't call Rei's ending tragic. She evolved into a fifth dimensional space god. That's actually kind of cool.


Do you base this on personal experience? :P


It may be not entirely hopelessly bleak, but being pretty in its sensorical form is a basic ingredient of a tragedy wht differentiates it from something more fit for the word 'clusterfuck'.

There is something about that scene where she essentially explodes, something about how she didn't tell Shinji that option B would mean bye-bye so he could choose what's right for him without taking this into account (her choice of words in this version implies prett strongly that this was very intentional), how she did ultimately get to tell him her true feelings because really, a huge part of Rei's story is basically that she, conciously or otherwise, wanted to truly convey her inner feelings, to reach communication and connection with herself and others. To make "others see whats inside of her (not the way surgeons and serial killers do)", as the great Miss Tezuka would put it.) instead of dying alone and unfullfilled. She ended saying she was really happy.


There is that last smile, where she briefly seems to linger like a ghost or one of these cartoon characters who's just been sliced into bits and hasn't noticed yet, and then, like a gust of wind, you see this bright light explosion, a snapshot of the remainders of her legs, poof from the inside out.
There was once this metaphysical dynamic engine of a god, that someone grabbed and built into a girl who never had anything of her own, whose every posession was really someone elses, even her face, soul or purpose, but she was still a person of her own, she still unavoidably felt.
And then, in one sense, the girl has been blown away like scattering flower petals - in another, Shinji is finally catching a glance at the essence of the space monster, and he can only percieve it as light.

There IS thought in it, even If I wish Sadamoto had desisted from the occassional cheesy twillightey line like "I used to be all empty".


As far as I'm concerned, that WAS a Rei ending. Just a bittersweet one, like most things involving Rei seem to be.

At least we still have th "Best End" and Gakuen Datenroku, allthough the latter is admittedly overflowing with teh Kaworu. Not that I mind him.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:30 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I wouldn't call Rei's ending tragic. She evolved into a fifth dimensional space god. That's actually kind of cool.


Yes, but the tragedy is that she wanted Shinji to evolve along with her. She's now both everywhere and nowhere, but always alone.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:35 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Yes, but the tragedy is that she wanted Shinji to evolve along with her. She's now both everywhere and nowhere, but always alone.


Except she's also with him his entire life!

Oh.

That does kind of suck.

Beats workin'.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:52 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Except she's also with him his entire life!

Oh.

That does kind of suck.

Beats workin'.


Kind of reminds me of the ending of lain.
Maybe Reincarnation!Shinji occassionally glimpses the distant, ghostly sillhouette of a bluehaired girl as he goes about his new life in college.
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Postby James Sucellus » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:23 pm

Rei is overexposed within the fandom. There's very little to analyse about her character when compared to Shinji, Asuka, Ritsuko, Gendo and Misato.

I also agree there's nothing tragic about her ending at all. She's not the type of person to be affected by loneliness.

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Postby Dataprime » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:35 pm

View Original PostJames Sucellus wrote:Rei is overexposed within the fandom.

She's also one of the most overused character archetypes for anime.
'the quiet girl with blue hair and no emotions'
Last edited by Dataprime on Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:45 pm

View Original PostJames Sucellus wrote:Rei is overexposed within the fandom. There's very little to analyse about her character when compared to Shinji, Asuka, Ritsuko, Gendo and Misato.




Have you and I watched the same show?


She gets as much screentime and inner monologues as anyone ever, she's central to the plot... she gets the whole ending to herself (and a random full moon), for god's sake!

View Original PostJames Sucellus wrote:She's not the type of person to be affected by loneliness.


Funny, because I remember the exact opposite being explicitly stated in ep 23.
Loneliness is her main cause of suffering.


I'm not sure if that persists past the ending since Lillith is a 'monoform' existence like the other angels (and unlike the Lillim and their individual forms) but it's certainly true for most of the show, and sh's gonna remember what the earthly existence was like, So one can wonder how much she can go back to just being there as this inangible presence.... if at all.

The manga dialogue does seem to suggest that at last in this version, she does persist in some form after the end of the physical GNR.
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Postby Na7e » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:48 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Have you and I watched the same show?


Check the date on the post.

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Postby Ray » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:10 pm

View Original PostDataprime wrote:She's also one of the most overused character archetypes for anime.
'the quiet girl with blue hair and no emotions'


Her character design is extremely overused. . . but surely not to the extent you say right?
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Postby James Sucellus » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:16 pm

View Original PostDataprime wrote:She's also one of the most overused character archetypes for anime.
'the quiet girl with blue hair and no emotions'


Agreed. She's EASILY the least unique of Eva's main cast, and can be found in a bajillion other anime shows.

Kendrix wrote:She gets as much screentime and inner monologues as anyone ever, she's central to the plot... she gets the whole ending to herself (and a random full moon), for god's sake!


The ending is Shinji's. I don't see how this is really debatable, seeing as he not only takes his own life in to his hands, but the entire future of humanity.


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