Anonymous_Evafan wrote:In a way I don't understand NemZ attitude here. I think it's important to have someone challenge the communities beliefs, to force us to reevaluate our conclusions even if we ultimately don't agree. If there wasn't someone that kept us thinking this place would be dreadful. But on the other hand I can see how it would be frustrating.

Only skimmed this thread (OP is certainly a character) but from what i read that's not the impression i got from NemZ's post, he just said that he didn't feel like writing that theory of his and that he didn't feel many people would be interested.

Partly that it just gets tiring to argue these points again and again.

Partly that I don't think it will actually change anyone's mind, especially considering 'my eva' is not the form most people are familiar with anymore so I'd pretty much be basing an argument on a version of the show most people don't care about.

Partly I'm busy with other things and have quite enough half-finished things to keep me busy without taking on some new task. If I was going to devote a chunk of time to writing it would probably be better spent on one of my long-neglected fanfics.

Partly I just don't much like the idea that once I write what is essentially an essay someone else can come along and change it, effectively putting words in my mouth I might not agree with. Basically the very idea of a wiki is somewhat of a turnoff to my participation in it.

Partly I'm just lazy. I mean I really ought to be getting some work done right now but instead I'm fucking around here, procrastinating like a boss.

And finally, partly just for the sake of indulging in utterly pointless and petty spite that somehow is still quite satisfying despite knowing exactly how stupid and childish it is. Haters gonna hate.

There is NO DOUBT that this place is overrun with team red, and team red, or at least a vocal minority of it, has a tendency to go 2DEEP4U at ppl who disagree with them.

But regardless of preference, I think we can all agree that having a "Shinji & Asuka relationship page" and no "Gendo & Shinji relationship page" or not even extra segment in the article for freakin Misato is just silly.
I suggest this: Delete the former, overhaul it, make more. Start with Gendo.

The problem is that, to some degree, there were actual implications of attraction put there, with primary intents beyond igniting flame wars or providing comic relief, and chances are that if you believe that the narrative portrays A & B as attracted to each other, you're usually going to think that there's a reason for that, too, one that relates to the central themes of the show and is linked with further understanding of it/WTF the point was, so contexts of "shipping", "objective evaluation of character relationships"(romantic or otherwise) and "in-depht-analysis" are not necessarily disjunct.

This show is about human interaction. It could also be seen as a comming of age story.
Humans procreate. Sexual/romantic awakening, as well as the maturation of your ideas of that are a huge part of adolescence.

What we do know is that Anno intended Misato as the primary female lead of the show (see initial statement) - She serves as a secondary PoV Character, and as such, very much required to give us a look into the "adult world", and because Shinji is simply not the type to go conspiracy-hunting.

There's another thing that cannot be denied: R/S exists. Even the freakin' Proposal already introduces Rei as "...learned about feelings after she falls in love." If several characters explicitly call it that in 2.0, it is at least a valid possibility. But it's clear which pilot girl the Editors favored, (not just shipping wise - at all.) even on the Rebuild pages.
There are similarly unambigous official statements for K/S (numerous materials, from the rejected drafts to a comment by Ishida on the Q-interviews) and M/S ("...first woman"-quote from the... R&D booklet, or was it the EoE one?)

So, let's look at the construction of this cast. We have Shinji & Misato at its center. Gendo is Shinji's father/Shadow. Ritsuko is a contrast to Misato. (Emotional vs rational, optimism vs cynism, age-appropiate vs immature, etc.)
From the documents we have, we know that Asuka was the next addition (based on the first draft for the protagonist), with Rei beind designed as a contrast. So we have this pair of characters that "balance each other out", with their most basic character designs being crafted in a way that they are exact opposites - Short blue hair with red eyes/long red hair with blue eyes. Bikini vs Swimsuit.
They're also the only other on-duty pilots, save for unfortunate one-episode-events like Touji or Kaworu.
Even the opening introduces us to both at the same time, as these contrasting silhouettes. There are many shots/compositions where Shinji is shown standing in-between them, they are regularly used for contrast with each other or between them all in a classic freudian trio structure.
For all intents and purposes, their significance is equal, Anno running out of ideas for a few episodes notwithstanding.
They are just very different types of characters and thus portrayed in different ways -
Perspective is the keyword.
Why did we never heard about Dumbledore's sexual orientation in the books?
Because it's written from the perspective of a student who admires him, and who the fuck knows their headmaster's sexual orientation?
Simply, Asuka, like, say, Misato is the sort of character we can see stuffing a sandwich into their face while laying on a couch in their Pyjamas, while Rei, Gendo and Keel are not. Fridge logic dictate they all sleep in something other than their uniforms and require nutrition, but if we saw that, that would totally destroy the mysterious/menacing atmosphere.
Besides, there's no context to show then eating sadwiches in their Pyjamas - our PoV characters don't see them doing it.

Before you tell me that Rei, plot wise, is less important than Asuka, consider this:
- Rei was chosen to feature in the ending.
- Rei appears in every single episode appart from episode 8 - Even if she has few lines, they made sure that we notice that she is there.
- Asuka is hardly in the opening at all.
- Rei appears, along with Asuka and Misato, in the various "unification"/"naked ladies"-scenes.
- Rei is the first female character we see (even if we technically hear Misato earlier.)
- Rei regularly appears in Shinji's "contemplation scenes"
- Asuka only shows up in the eight episode; She is not really present for Shinji's initial (relative) transformation into something closer to a fighter. The point where he stopped spending the entire battle in a state of panic was the Futagoyama incident. She is not present at all in episode 21, where much of the 'verse's and the plot's intricate structure are revealed.
- Rei is a key element in the finale, Instrumentality, and the overall "Cosmology" of the Verse; In terms to the huge plot, all that big sheme of Angels, conspiracies and Scientists, Asuka is technically little more than a simple footsoldier, a pawn to be sacrificed by forces beyond her control. This is, of course, part of her tragedy, but it's still true. It's more like she partially has her own little parallel story.
- While each of them has further attributes of their own, the two are given many directly contrasting attributes (both negative and positive) and are otherwise very heavily built as contrast figures to each other, down to their preferred colors.
- S/A content is not even present in all continuities, some of them being amongst the more "serious" ones: Manga!Shinji, GakuenDatenroku!Shinji and Rebuild!Shinji have yet to show interest in Asuka as any other than a friend and teammate.
- Try finding hard S/A evidence without the DC scenes.
- "Hope that people can understand each other". What could be more central to EVA than THAT?!


So we have two equally important female characters who the protagonist is heavily implied to be attracted to.
Congratulations! This kind of situation is commonly found in your classic love triangle setup.

Possible "serious" interpretation value in that, for example, could be this Postulate: "The Love Triangle, if it exists, is a metaphor for how Shinji is inwardly torn between/influenced by the various concepts/forces that Rei and Asuka represent, such as:
Water vs Fire
Superego vs Id
Thanatos vs Eros
Pain of Reality vs The hope of Understanding
Philosophical/abstract vs Practical"

But if we are going to take your S/A page and say, "This isn't shipping, this is interpretation!", then, you know, there are various ways to interpret stuff that still comform with the various official statements we have, and further conclusions that can be drawn from them....

That said, there is a lot more layers/details/etc than "WAFF potential" or "perverse sexual lust" to either of these relationships, so while we shouldn't beaut around the Elephant in the room, an analysis page should contain analysis. Currently, the S/A page is not completely void of actual in-depht analysis of dynamics, but they're in-between a wild list of random "shipping clues" and don't enter into the multilayered disfunctionality of that combination beyond the usual "Shinji, you suck."

And they most definitely didn't get to be an item, regardless of their capacity to become one. Being a couple generally implies an exchange of intentions ("I heart you!" "I heart you too!"). some formal establishment/ mutual agreement to chose each other, and faithfulness, ie, no more Rei, no more Kaji, no more random date guy from episode 15.
Unfortunately, they all got hit by the evil plot hammer before getting the chance to get together.(except for Kaji and Misato, of course. They got back together in ep 15, including mayor conversation, relationship upgrade (smooch!) and a notable change in how they treat each other, and lampshading by other chatracters - Phonecall in ep 16, that amusing conversation during the synch test...Poor Hyuga. No such thing observable with Shinji. Smooching nonwithstanding.

Kendrix wrote:But regardless of preference, I think we can all agree that having a "Shinji & Asuka relationship page" and no "Gendo & Shinji relationship page" or not even extra segment in the article for freakin Misato is just silly.

The Wiki is a work in progress; those pages are coming. In fact, there already is a dedicated Misato/Shinji page (unfinished):

[url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Misato_and_Shinji_(Relationship)[/url]

OMF is working on a character relationship page template that will allow readers to easily access the relationship pages from the main character pages.

Anyway, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, all points of view for which a reasonable case can be made are welcome here. Anyone who wants to can ask for Wiki access, write an Analysis article explaining why Shinji/Asuka, Shinji/Rei, and Shinji/Misato are equally important, and link to it from the main Shinji/Asuka article. And link back to the S/A page from the new page. (The same would apply to articles saying that Rei or Misato is the most important relationship.)

Kendrix wrote:There is NO DOUBT that this place is overrun with team red, and team red, or at least a vocal minority of it, has a tendency to go 2DEEP4U at ppl who disagree with them.

Well if they do, then those tendencies will hopefully be turned into a worthwhile theory page. In the meantime, there will be "basic" relationship pages which list critical events and observations, and which shouldn't be the subject of any serious controversy.

There are preliminary relationship pages already present, but these do need a little work and thought about their basic framework as of yet. I'm thinking people should simply edit the basic pages as they see fit for now, while keeping controversy, flame wars, and shipping off of them. Intermediate pages are still subject to general editing rules and should never become an edit war battleground( for anything other than grammar and spelling).

On the matter of "relationship" pages in general, firstly, these pages are not exclusively about romances or pairings. They are still very broad pages on all aspects of the interpersonal relationships between characters. Note also that there should be at least two relationship pages for each pair, an "intermediate" general page, and then further "advanced" theory pages concern "deeper" aspects of the relationship.

Kendrix wrote:But if we are going to take your S/A page and say, "This isn't shipping, this is interpretation!", then, you know, there are various ways to interpret stuff that still comform with the various official statements we have, and further conclusions that can be drawn from them....

If it's something controversial, it belongs on a separate theory page(I don't think R/S is any more or less controversial than A/S really, but never mind). My original thinking was that "shipping", as a fan-based topic, might have a place on the wiki. But I can see that people get a little worked up over this, so let's leave the idea of a shipping wiki section aside for now.

Instead, we can simply deal with "deeper" or "debated perspective" aspects of relationships in "advanced" theory and analysis pages with seperate editorial rules. Note that the idea of a "romantic" pairing should be present on those intermediate relationship pages where it can be seen as something which should be discussed. I'm thinking a paragraph or two (or more for the main pairings) is enough on the intermediate (Relationship) pages, but my thinking on these isn't fully formed as of yet.

It's important thought, that people don't get bogged down on "shipping" while the wiki is being generally re-edited. It's just one aspect of the show and it would be a pity for it to become a sour grape that sinks the whole wiki.

Very partial and biased article. We can make an article like this onw with almost every other character, like Rei, Misato and Kaworu.

he complex dynamics of their relationship quickly become the heart of the show

Are you saying their relationship is more important than Shinji's relationship with Gendo? I don't think so.


Also, IMHO, both Shinji and Asuka needs an article like this too:
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Rei_Ayanami_%28In-Depth%29

The current Shinji and Misato article is definiely "Theory and Analysis" material. There needs to be a more basic page on these two. I'll try moving the existing page.

If anyone is interesting in writing the standard relationship article, then remember to just jump in an BE BOLD.

EDIT: The existing article has been moved to a more appropriate Theory and Analysis:Sexuality In Misato and Shinji's Relationship page.

The current Misato and Shinji (Relationship) is a clean slate just waiting for someone to edit it. Now's your chance!

AilesGrises wrote:Well, fanwank much? Or maybe external material (say, a certain card game) sipping through where it simply does not belong?

I really do wonder what would be of kaworu without any of these.

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:The current Shinji and Misato article is definiely "Theory and Analysis" material. There needs to be a more basic page on these two. I'll try moving the existing page.

You know, i'm probably going to regret asking this, but are we sure we want basic pages? All of us know what happened in the series already, and information like height, age, and that sort of stuff (i take it that's what qualifies as basic information) are superfluous at best.

And somewhat more on-topic: I don't really know what to think, frankly. With a show such as NGE, you're bound to find some degree of controversy in anything that isn't an unquestionable or obvious factor or axiom.

On the matter of Basic pages, they serve two purposes. Firstly, they are intended to be useful for more casual fans, or possibly people who haven't seen the series in a long time. Secondly, the overview they provide allows for a lot of links leading into deeper pages. Essentially, they act as a gateway to deeper material.

Hello again, after a very long absence. I'm only back to say that I've given up. And to vent. I've grown so apathetic over this thing during the time that, no matter how petty it is, I'm content with being one of those "500" people that just complain about a thing in the wiki and do not do anything to change it. This was the reason why it took me so long to be done with it. There was always this little voice in my head telling me to stick to my word. But after several attempts to give the reply I promised during the past few months, and several thousands words later, I realized that I'm putting a lot of sustained but intermittent effort into a monumental waste of time. So many times I logged in, wrote a huge post (which I see is far from unusual around here) but couldn't get myself to click submit. Because writing a reply felt like a chore and there was a lot of vitriol behind that click, especially in the beginning. Traces of which linger in this "resignation letter" too, as you can notice. I tried to be but I can't be charitable.

Because after I've completed my crawl through the thread Mr. Tines brought up and a lot more things became clear to me. But most clear in the sense that, as I pointed out initially, quite a lot of tidbits in that article form not so much an analysis and interpretation of the relationship Shinji and Asuka have, as they do a misrepresentation meant to make them fit a certain preconceived idea. That very thread is the result of nothing other than shipping debates (favourite "couples" discussion). The bias is undeniable. It was pretty obvious from the start but now it reached "the sky is blue and water is wet" levels of obvious. The fact that I even had to argue about these things was so disheartening because at its worst, so much of this arguing would be, plain and simple, arguing against some random poster's fanfic passed off as the real deal. When it wouldn't be arguing semantics and other such anal meanderings, because "possible pairing" and "couple" are two different things, right? Why do I even have to point out this fact? I'm so sick of hearing my own thoughts about it.

Sure, some interesting interpretations and analyses were made. With varying degrees I agree with some and disagree with others. But there was just so much dubious stuff brought up, even almost going as far as replacing the original with something that I cannot describe as anything but a fan edit (if "bullshit" is not to your liking). I'm just calling it what it isー

Stuff like pulling lines out of the original context and putting them in another (read: script rewriting), giving birth to a chimera that lives only to feed a blatant misrepresentation of the show that supports a certain preference e.g. no, that is not what Shinji wishes for at all. Or stuff like blatantly false portrayals of details in scenes used to justify, yet again, not an interpretation of the show but a convenient train of thought that builds a misrepresentation of Evangelion's narrative e.g. no, Asuka did not wear just a towel out of the shower in that scene. This is of course a minor but pretty interesting happening, as it was plainly contradicted just a couple of posts later, only for this to go by not only entirely "unnoticed" as the discussion continued, but also fatter in lies, when a fan got to pretend he's the sound director for the episode (the volume and texture of that track even changes when Shinji pulls out his headphones for fuck's sake). Textual criticism is one thing. Pretending you're writer and director for the series, that is something else entirely.

And of course, other erroneous tidbits like treating ambiguous things as if they're certain and cherry-picking the "pros" while brushing aside the "cons". Little by little, the snowball grew bigger. A lot of "support" for many of the points brought up comes not necessarily from the series, or Revival of Evangelion (mainly End of Evangelion), the edit or continuity upon which most of these arguments are supposedly founded, but from the yessing of a "majority". Which, quite ironically, just so happened to be an oft repeated "argument". As was a hefty dose of circular reasoning. Surprisingly many arguments implicitly started from the premise that somehow Evangelion is Shinji and Asuka's love story. Soluzar and Reichu outright admit that. And the justification is, how to put it, explicitly unstated? Or should I say, ironically, too deep for anyone who begs to differ on this "axiom"?

For example, even one of the most ambiguous and controversial scenes in the franchise is blatantly "obvious" - Shinji and Asuka end up together on the beach precisely because their future lies together and that they are destined, in a sense, to also seek that happiness together by the threads of fate that binds them. It's so simple isn't it? Because Asuka is Shinji's SO, she ends up with him on the beach, and Asuka is Shinji's SO because she ends up with him on the beach! Why is that hard to swallow? Because the outcome is predetermined. It's self-validating but meaningless. It's not hard to reach a conclusion when you embed it in the premise.

Again, there's a difference between analyzing what is given to reach a conclusion, and refitting that to match your interpretation. I saw the latter more often than the former.

It's a headache. As Kendrix pointed out, I've stepped inside the LAS nest, and right or wrong, I just don't have the time and energy to invest into this. Nor do I have the will to overcome this numerical deficiency. Add on top of it the fact that what I went into expecting to be an edit job that would tone certain things down and rewrite the article in a more neutral language grew into me having to write a rebuttal article and whatnot and I... I don't see the point to be honest. I've lost the point at some point along the way. It's not worth the trouble. If I have to invest so much effort into something I'd rather do it on my own terms, like, on some blog or some shit.

With that said, about my editor account, you could as well deactivate it because I'm not going going to be anywhere near the vicinity of the evawiki in the near or far future. I apologize for wasting your time, and I regret wasting mine. This ended up being just a slowly burned, and thoroughly fruitless knee jerk reaction.

This is exactly why I never made any significant contributions to the wiki either -- too much like hard work to keep on going against the hive-mind.

I still don't get the utter failure to distinguish between "this relationship is important" and "these two are in love/are a couple". As I've noted in the past a relationship doesn't stop being important just because you aren't fucking.

Eh, i don't know man. Whenever stuff gets removed from or added to the wiki there's almost always a good reason for that (And no, i don't think "going agaisnt the hive-mind" qualifies as a good reason) It's just that it seems no one ever properly complains or argues when it comes to challenging an editorial decision.

But then again i haven't edited the wiki in a really long time and it's not like i ever was the greatest editor in there so i wouldn't know much.

Tines, you pretty much are the hive mind. You're an admin; as far as our sorry asses are concerned, you and the other top guys and gals are god. I don't see the problem here, since you can really nuke things into wherever you want.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:you can really nuke things into wherever you want.

Edit wars with other staff members who are at various degrees of LAS when I'm the lone anti-shipper? No thanks.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote: I don't see the problem here, since you can really nuke things into wherever you want.

'tis a genuine hivemind on the Wiki, Lunchie, except where obnoxious content is concerned.

My two cents on the matter? I've said it before, I'll say it again:

We're all right...and we're all wrong. Like religion, it's all in what you choose to follow. But I would never force what I think on others. That's kind of the point of Evangelion in the first place: it's all meant to be interpreted however your mind says so.

I disagree. I only push away from Shipping when it gets to ridiculous levels (IE: Ramiel X Unit 01 My OTP!)