development of evas (& Rei, & dummy plugs)

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Postby Noah » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:50 pm

In my telling, Yui left her DNA behind for the purpose of creating Rei.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:53 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:What makes the most sense is that the attempts to recover Yui from the plug wound up creating something that later became the basis of Rei, be it an embryo or just a mass of weird human/lilith hybrid tissue.


That's how I figured. Especially considering Eva-01 and Lilith were joined during the CE. No reason to think that wasn't the case during the Yui salvage, right? Don't believe there's anything that implies otherwise from what little we know.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:27 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:What makes the most sense is that the attempts to recover Yui from the plug wound up creating something that later became the basis of Rei, be it an embryo or just a mass of weird human/lilith hybrid tissue.

The latter is closer to what is supported by all available materials, I would just remove the "/lilith hybrid" part. The RCB says Yui's remains were salvaged and used to create the body of Rei. That creates in my mind the image of using the LCL into which Yui tanged to create Rei.
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:03 am

Both CI and RCB say about Rei being created from Yui's "salvaged remains", and there's a similar explanation in the manga.
Probably, attempting to get Yui back resulted in a twitchy mass of tissue with Gene material from both Lillith (who unit 01 is created from, after all) which however, theoretiocally proved that a joining of angel material with humans was theoretically possible - the crux on Gendo's plan.

Then, the first Rei was created based on that material, probably with further genetic engineering (as the random combination was probably not all too viable - even the final result barely holds together. She#s also mdeant to serve a very specific purpose.) and once they were done with her, they made a bassin of clones just in case. Either way, there should have been some degree of afterwards processing for Fuyu & Gendo to have contributed enough for them to say they "created" her.

Helping himself to any other sort of DNA sample shouldn't have been a problem for her freakin husband, tho.
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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:42 am

The most evidence-based and fanwank-free explanation is the following:


- Rei was created from the remains of Yui (source: RCB glossary)

- More specifically, the remains (presumably the Yui-broth in the Entry Plug after the failed salvage attempts) were taken into that lab Ritsuko shows to Shinji and Misato and Yui's DNA was developed into the first Rei(s) bodies (source: Ritsuko in Ep 23)

- Somehow, Lilith's matter comes into play. Rei is probably direct Lilith's matter shaped in Yui's DNA. We can speculate this because
a) Kaworu says that he is made of Adam, like Eva-02
b) Kaworu says that he and Rei are alike
c) Rei displays At Field property similar to those of Kaworu
(source: Ep 24)

- Lilith's soul (or at least part of it) is in Rei (source: RCB glossary), it might have been part of the Yui remains after the fail salvage

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Postby Squigsquasher » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:09 am

Magic.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:29 am

Falcon: Finally looking at the EoE movie book, the word "remains" does not appear at all. It says "salvage shita mono", approximately "that which was salvaged" -- which could mean just about anything...

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:27 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Falcon: Finally looking at the EoE movie book, the word "remains" does not appear at all. It says "salvage shita mono", approximately "that which was salvaged" -- which could mean just about anything...


Shimatta!

But thanks for looking it up. Could you give us your translation of the whole sentence? The "Her body was created" bit to me is still enough to be evidence for a lab creation of Rei as opposed to her generation from Eva-01 à la Shinji in Ep 20.

Additionally, the alternative of a somehow formed Rei being generated directly by the salvage doesn't seem very likely if you take these two points into consideration:

1 - If that had been the result of the salvage, they would have expected Shinji to be salvaged in the same way. While they were clearly expecting him to reform in the Entry Plug's, hence the panic once it all flushes out.

2 - Ritsuko says that the room in Terminal Dogma that looks like Rei's flat is where she was born and raised (Ep 23). Some people read this as "where Rei II was born and raised" but to me the most logical interpretation is that ritsuko meant Rei in general and, given the timeframes, Rei I, although I concede that cannot be ascertained beyond "irreasonable doubt".

"RITSUKO:
This IS Rei Ayanami's room.
This is where she was born and raised.

Shinji:
This place?

RITSUKO:
Yes, this is where she was born."


However, following the notorious thread of cloning in NGE of these last few days, I feel like answering the question which is the title of the thread with "Gendo created the clones by cloning".

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:50 pm

Still don't see why Rei I wouldn't have popped out of Unit 01's core just like Shinji did years later. The big reason the LCL explanation doesn't work is because Lilith's soul got dragged along for the ride -- I have trouble seeing how that would happen unless the event occurred while Lilith was still involved (i.e. while Unit 01 and Lilith were attached).
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Postby Reichu » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:01 pm

Falcon: Full translation goes,

Her body is what was salvaged from Yui's remnants* within the Eva, and her copies were mass-produced in Terminal Dogma.

* Lit. "left-behind Yui".


This seems consistent with what was expected for the Shinji salvage. They referred to his status in the entry plug as being "in the Eva" (why, I have no idea), and expected him to reform inside. Yui's CE also involved an entry plug (implied very heavily in background chatter in #21, and an illustration for Chronicle shows Yui in an entry plug), so, just like Shinji, that's where her physical remnants would be, and where their reconstitution would be attempted.

Ritsuko's line has always been kind of problematic, because precisely what does she mean by "born"? In real life, one's "birth" is arbitrarily defined as the moments in which one exits the uterus, regardless of your state of physical development. Rei's various "births" are by all accounts womb-free, so what actually counts? The moment she pops into existence? The moment she gains awareness? Etc.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:29 pm

I tend to agree, Reichu; Ritsuko's line could refer to the Dummy System, the clones, Rei II specifically, or who knows what else. There's also the question of how the clones (and the Evas, for that matter) were fast-grown to maturity, so it could refer to that as well -- maybe an infant or something was recovered from the plug and it was manipulated somehow to the point where it became Rei I in that room.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:45 pm

All of the crap they have to keep Rei alive and make new ones and dupe her memories and such implies that they were starting from something more elementary than a viable living clone that just appeared somehow. The Yui-LCL soup explanation makes way more sense.

It also makes more thematic sense, as Rei is essentially tied to the idea of men (lower case, as in the gender) subverting the power of the mother goddess and controlling the mystery of birth for themselves.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:55 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:All of the crap they have to keep Rei alive and make new ones and dupe her memories and such implies that they were starting from something more elementary than a viable living clone that just appeared somehow. The Yui-LCL soup explanation makes way more sense.


I don't see how. If pills and memories and such are even going to work in the first place she has to be the same basic critter as other humans, and her injuries and such certainly indicate this is the case.

Also, remember the bit about Lilith's soul. That has to get into the mix somehow, and we haven't seen any indication that souls can somehow be stored/transported/whatever in LCL instead of bodies.

It also makes more thematic sense, as Rei is essentially tied to the idea of men (lower case, as in the gender) subverting the power of the mother goddess and controlling the mystery of birth for themselves.


Don't see how soup is more thematically appropriate than an actual female body for that.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:57 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I don't see how. If pills and memories and such are even going to work in the first place she has to be the same basic critter as other humans, and her injuries and such certainly indicate this is the case.

Also, remember the bit about Lilith's soul. That has to get into the mix somehow, and we haven't seen any indication that souls can somehow be stored/transported/whatever in LCL instead of bodies.


She's not human. She's a human-shaped blob of goddess. She can generate an AT-field on her own.



Don't see how soup is more thematically appropriate than an actual female body for that.


If they just receive a baby, they're not assuming the reproductive power of womanhood for themselves. They have to create the baby.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:09 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:She's not human. She's a human-shaped blob of goddess. She can generate an AT-field on her own.


Rei III can, the other Reis couldn't. More importantly, all humans generate AT Fields -- Lilith's pretty clear about this in EoE. Rei III's is just stronger than most.

If they just receive a baby, they're not assuming the reproductive power of womanhood for themselves. They have to create the baby.


They do it either way, since the salvage effort is the act of creation. You're just fussing about the particulars.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:13 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Rei III can, the other Reis couldn't. More importantly, all humans generate AT Fields -- Lilith's pretty clear about this in EoE. Rei III's is just stronger than most.


Did they try? And you know what I mean.

They do it either way, since the salvage effort is the act of creation. You're just fussing about the particulars.


No, I'm not. If Eva 01 birthed a baby that wouldn't be the same as Gendo, Fuyu and whoever making a baby without a woman being involved in a kind of reverse immaculate conception. (Yes, I know the immaculate conception actually refers to Mary, not Jesus)

It has to be intentional. That's how magic works.

Besides, why would the Eva just poop out a half Yui half Lilith hybrid infant with Lilith's soul?
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:16 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Did they try? And you know what I mean.


Not really.

It has to be intentional. That's how magic works.


At that point you're making theme a slave to your own personal fanwank, at which point the argument becomes pointless. Magic in Eva is your presumption, and it's one shared by virtually no one else. It's not a valid starting point for the rest of us.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:13 pm

Not shared by everyone yet, you mean.

Yet, on to business. You really think Rei, either as an infant or the toddler that Naoko strangled, popped into Unit 01 during the recovery attempts?

Why? Why a baby or a toddler, and not a full grown duplicate of Yui in the flesh of Lilith? It's established that a person's physical form on reconstitution is tied to their soul and mind, as in Shinji's return. By what mechanism does Yui refusing to come out of the core produce a clone of her in a less physically developed state? Somehow made of Lilith-flesh?

Further, assuming there is truth in this assumption that Rei was birthed fully formed in the Eva, that implies that everything related to her came afterwards. Rei, who is the end result of a program to create a dummy plug and a carrier for the soul of Lilith that Gendo can, specifically, use to manipulate Lilith to shape instrumentality to his whims by trapping her in a meat sac and being her weirdo boyfriend-dad.

The end product came first, and everything need to maintain her- the memory duplication system, the tank of clones, the dummy plug plant, all of it- came after Rei herself.

Then you have Ritsko. Is she misinformed? Possibly, she wasn't there, and the Akagi women clearly don't have perfect knowledge. Why show Shinji the room where Rei was "born" if she was born somewhere else? If she knew that Rei was born in the Eva, why wouldn't she tell him that, if her goal was to do as much damage as she could?

On top of all that, the themes demand that Rei be manufactured, not simply recovered from a process over which Gendo et. al. have no control. Think of the difference if Frankenstein had just animated a random dead body instead of assembling one of out of parts. It guts the idea behind her.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:23 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Not shared by everyone yet, you mean.


It's been 18 years, man. The horse left the barn so long ago it's in the glue factory by now.

Yet, on to business. You really think Rei, either as an infant or the toddler that Naoko strangled, popped into Unit 01 during the recovery attempts?


Given the precedent (in the show) of Shinji, yes. I've yet to hear any reason why that wouldn't be the case.

Why? Why a baby or a toddler, and not a full grown duplicate of Yui in the flesh of Lilith? It's established that a person's physical form on reconstitution is tied to their soul and mind, as in Shinji's return. By what mechanism does Yui refusing to come out of the core produce a clone of her in a less physically developed state? Somehow made of Lilith-flesh?


It came with Lilith's soul, not Yui's. It's not that hard to connect the dots, really.

And again, the soul's the important bit. You have to get it from point A to point B, and that's nigh-impossible (at least without a huge amount of fanwank) if Rei wasn't born in Unit 01.

Further, assuming there is truth in this assumption that Rei was birthed fully formed in the Eva, that implies that everything related to her came afterwards. Rei, who is the end result of a program to create a dummy plug and a carrier for the soul of Lilith that Gendo can, specifically, use to manipulate Lilith to shape instrumentality to his whims by trapping her in a meat sac and being her weirdo boyfriend-dad.

The end product came first, and everything need to maintain her- the memory duplication system, the tank of clones, the dummy plug plant, all of it- came after Rei herself.


On the contrary, Rei is the genesis of that program. She is the reason Gendo and Fuyu came to think it could even exist to begin with.

Then you have Ritsko. Is she misinformed?


As noted above, her line could mean a great many things. It is trivially easy to reconcile it with the scenario I and Reichu described.

But that aside, watch the show and count the number of times Ritsuko says "Impossible!" Yes, my dear, she is misinformed, about a great many things.

On top of all that, the themes demand that Rei be manufactured, not simply recovered from a process over which Gendo et. al. have no control. Think of the difference if Frankenstein had just animated a random dead body instead of assembling one of out of parts. It guts the idea behind her.


The themes demand no such thing. She is a clone of Yui and a tool of Gendo, and that is more than enough to allow her to serve her purpose in the show. The rest is your headcanon, nothing more.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:40 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's been 18 years, man. The horse left the barn so long ago it's in the glue factory by now.


You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Given the precedent (in the show) of Shinji, yes. I've yet to hear any reason why that wouldn't be the case.


Because it's Lilith that is in Rei, not Yui. Why would Lilith come out looking like Rei? Or at all?

It came with Lilith's soul, not Yui's. It's not that hard to connect the dots, really.


I said "a duplicate of Yui in the flesh of Lilith", as in a physical duplicate of Yui in the flesh of Lilith. I know where Yui's soul is. I watched the show. I am aware of the basic logistics of the plot.

And again, the soul's the important bit. You have to get it from point A to point B, and that's nigh-impossible (at least without a huge amount of fanwank) if Rei wasn't born in Unit 01.

On the contrary, Rei is the genesis of that program. She is the reason Gendo and Fuyu came to think it could even exist to begin with.


You don't know this. Your speculation about the sequence of events is above reproach, but mine is fanwank?

Why is someone more likely to think "hey, can I use this baby to get my wife back!" than "hey, maybe I can use this goop to shape a vessel for Lilith's soul I can use to get my wife back!"

As noted above, her line could mean a great many things. It is trivially easy to reconcile it with the scenario I and Reichu described.

But that aside, watch the show and count the number of times Ritsuko says "Impossible!" Yes, my dear, she is misinformed, about a great many things.


Yeah, and Scotty doesn't know how the warp drive works.

The themes demand no such thing. She is a clone of Yui and a tool of Gendo, and that is more than enough to allow her to serve her purpose in the show. The rest is your headcanon, nothing more.


You mean, it's more than adequate to serve a surface reading. Rei's existence and development, like everything else in the complex work of art that is Eva, has a meaning beyond mere simulation. Rei (and the Evas) are a contribution to the long conversation in fiction on the creator-created relationship that includes Frankenstein and the folkloric Golem, etc.
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