Reconsidering the Wiki's Approach to Theory/Fanon...

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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:43 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Official sources conflict on that topic. Her year of birth is official. Her birthday is official. Anyone who can do math can deduce that she's 13. The fact that official sources also say she's 14 is regrettable, but there's nothing to be done about it -- either those sources are wrong or those listing her birthday are wrong.

Alternate explanation, the sources listing her age are listing her age at the end of the series, which is 14. (They skipped over her birthday in the later half of the series.)
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Postby esselfortium » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:01 pm

Weren't the characters' birthdays arbitrarily set to those of their voice actors, at some point after the series was completed?

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:41 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Weren't the characters' birthdays arbitrarily set to those of their voice actors, at some point after the series was completed?


Yes. Unfortunately, that makes them no less official. A bad choice, certainly, but an official one regardless.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby gatotsu911 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:05 pm

TV Tropes wrote:{{Fanon}}: A general note: so many things about the series and its mythos are implied and left open to interpretation, rather than explicitly stated, that drawing the line between canon and fanon can in some cases be extremely difficult, if not downright impossible. As a rule of thumb: if you heard it from somebody on the Internet (including ThisVeryWiki and even TheOtherWiki), or in a magazine, or at a convention, or even in the freaking DVD special features - don't assume it's canon. Hell, even the [[WordOfGod CREATORS]] [[ShrugOfGod tend to make contradictory statements about the series]], so you might not want to trust them so much either.

...I wrote that passage.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:24 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:...I wrote that passage.


It's a good point. It also shows us why citing sources is so important.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby gatotsu911 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It also shows us why citing sources is so important.

Or futile, depending on how you look at it.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:44 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Or futile, depending on how you look at it.


Never futile. The reader is never worse off for knowing where we got our information.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby gatotsu911 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:47 pm

True 'nuff. I guess the point I'm making... if in fact I'm making a point at all... is that it's important to differentiate between what is actually, literally stated in the show, and what is stated "off the record" or inferred by you/me/us, and encouraging every viewer to reach their own conclusions.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:51 pm

View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:True 'nuff. I guess the point I'm making... if in fact I'm making a point at all... is that it's important to differentiate between what is actually, literally stated in the show, and what is stated "off the record" or inferred by you/me/us, and encouraging every viewer to reach their own conclusions.


Sure. I think that's what Reichu was getting at up above, too.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby symbv » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:31 pm

View Original PostCody MacArthur Fett wrote:Alternate explanation, the sources listing her age are listing her age at the end of the series, which is 14. (They skipped over her birthday in the later half of the series.)


This makes sense. Does it apply to other characters too?
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Postby Legendary » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:03 pm

At the very least, Kensuke (along with 2I's anniversary!), Ritsuko, and Misato. Shinji and Maya may have been skipped too, but it's unlikely anyone else would, as the next earliest birthday, Aoba's, is in May. Kaji's birthday is in July and it's doubtful he was in Japan then, so he doesn't count. Toji's birthday is in late December, but no one would have mentioned it as it probably happens after Armisael.

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Postby thewayneiac » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:23 am

Some things to consider about this:

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
  • It is reasonable, IMO, to assume that the original plan was to put one shard of Lilith's soul in a clone of some sort and one in Unit-00. A clone would then pilot Unit-00 without difficulty, and without the need to sacrifice a human and traumatize a child to have an effective Eva. This is the sort of plan Yui and others in Gehirn might have developed (obviously not with Rei specifically, since she didn't exist at the time, but still; this explains why the sophisticated cloning tech in the show exists in the first place).


Isn't it more likely that the cloning tech was invented to clone the Evas and was applied to Rei out of neccessity?

Also, I usually bring this up when the question of Gendo and Yui's earliest plans comes up, but it somehow slipped my mind this time until now:

There is one clue. Ritsuko's ep. 23 tirade is pretty hard to follow, but in this section:
The Evas do not intrinsically have souls,
but they have human souls embedded in them.
They were all salvaged.
The only vessel that contained a soul was Rei.
She was the only one born with a soul.
The Chamber of Guf was empty, you see.


she seems to be mean that the original plan was to use unborn souls from the Guf as souls for the Evas, but the cupboard was bare, so to speak, so they were forced to turn to salvaged souls. Your theory sounds reasonable for a plan formed after they came to this realization.

  • The clone might easily die in combat against the Angels, which was fine; the soul would be recycled into a new body as necessary, ad infinitum.

  • Once Rei I was murdered, the plan changed. Gendo might have decided that he didn't want a murdered soul acting as his trump card against SEELE. So, he put the murdered soul into Unit 00 and put a fresh soul into Rei II.


  • This question comes to mind:

    This explains why they changed the plan in regards to Rei, but why not still use it with the other pilots? With Shinji you could correctly say that it's because Yui is already in Unit-01, but why not clone Asuka and Toji, give the clones Lilith soul fragments, and stick Lilith soul fragments in Units 02 & 03, instead of, as you said, sacrificing humans and traumatizing children? Why abandon the plan altogether? Was this the plan only for Unit-00?

  • Once Rei II and Unit 00 died their soul fragments appear to have been reconstituted in the form of Rei III (though it's also possible Rei II's fragment was used and the Unit 00 fragment returned to Lilith and participated in Instrumentality of its own accord; if Rei can "witness" others another fragment of Lilith's soul can presumably "witness" itself in like fashion. The other option's simpler, though). The why of this is unclear; perhaps Gendo figured that Rei II has stabilized Rei I enough that she could be trusted? Ironically it seems to be the influence of Rei II that ultimately betrayed him.


  • It's also been suggested that their souls were collected for Instrumentality ex-post facto. i.e. The Kaworu reflection in Rei 1's eyes in Death and the shot of Gendo as Rei 2 self destructed were phantom soul collecting Rei 3s. (I actually can't think of a better reason why Rei 1 would be seeing Kaworu.) Of course these aren't mutually exclusive provided you can except typical time travel problems: Reis i & 2 would simultaneously exist in Instrumenatlly seperately and as part of Rei 3. I personally don't have a problem, but a lot of people do.

  • We know something like this had to have happened because the Rei in Unit 00 is explicitly identified as Rei I in the ep 25 script. It probably wasn't the original plan, but since she's there the plan had to have changed for whatever reason. The above is one theory as to how it might have happened.


  • I agree that Rei 1's death must have triggered changes in the plan, and your theory seems a reasonable possibility, at least if my above thoughts can be addressed. But I have occasionally seen at least one contrary theory. Some people have occasionally suggested that the reason Rei 1 speaks to Naoko the way she does is because she's gone a little crazy because part of her soul has already been put into Unit-00. I don't particularly believe this myself, but I suppose it's possible.

    The core of the theory, at least for me, is this: first, because of the way Synchronization works the soul in Unit 00 must have some relation to Rei. This is why it simply cannot be Naoko Akagi. And second, since the being in ep 25 is specifically identified as Rei I it follows that she had to get there somehow. The simplest route is through Unit 00, and from there through Rei III.


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    Postby Bagheera » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:44 pm

    View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Isn't it more likely that the cloning tech was invented to clone the Evas and was applied to Rei out of neccessity?


    Yes, that's probably true.

    This question comes to mind:

    This explains why they changed the plan in regards to Rei, but why not still use it with the other pilots? With Shinji you could correctly say that it's because Yui is already in Unit-01, but why not clone Asuka and Toji, give the clones Lilith soul fragments, and stick Lilith soul fragments in Units 02 & 03, instead of, as you said, sacrificing humans and traumatizing children? Why abandon the plan altogether? Was this the plan only for Unit-00?


    With Touji, I couldn't say; it's possible that Lilith's soul would only stretch so far. We don't even know it's more divisible than a human soul is, and we can see how badly that went in Kyoko's case. As is Lilith's soul is split between her original body, Rei, and Unit-00. They probably couldn't get any more out of it.

    As for Asuka, any plans they had for Unit-02 went down the drain after Kyoko's CE (I like the idea that her CE was meant to be a way to avoid the problems seen with Yui's earlier endeavor, but failed for some reason. No support for that AFAICT, though). Once Kyoko was in there the die was cast.

    It's also been suggested that their souls were collected for Instrumentality ex-post facto. i.e. The Kaworu reflection in Rei 1's eyes in Death and the shot of Gendo as Rei 2 self destructed were phantom soul collecting Rei 3s. (I actually can't think of a better reason why Rei 1 would be seeing Kaworu.) Of course these aren't mutually exclusive provided you can except typical time travel problems: Reis i & 2 would simultaneously exist in Instrumenatlly seperately and as part of Rei 3. I personally don't have a problem, but a lot of people do.


    Bleah. I have enough problems with quantum Rei as it is.

    I agree that Rei 1's death must have triggered changes in the plan, and your theory seems a reasonable possibility, at least if my above thoughts can be addressed. But I have occasionally seen at least one contrary theory. Some people have occasionally suggested that the reason Rei 1 speaks to Naoko the way she does is because she's gone a little crazy because part of her soul has already been put into Unit-00. I don't particularly believe this myself, but I suppose it's possible.


    I'm not aiming to push for a particular theory in the Wiki; this all amounts to spitballing when you get down to brass tacks. But this is why I advocate a minimalist approach for the Wiki -- we should provide the information that is certain so that geeks like us can use it to fuel our crazy theories! :lol: To that end, noting that Shinji saw something that looked like Rei I, and that Rei I participated in Instrumentality and was specifically labeled as such in the script, and that synchronization works the way it does, is sufficient to conclude that the Rei I theory is credible. I think most of the rest of what's in there is extraneous.
    For my post-3I fic, go here.
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    People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
    I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
    Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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    Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:30 pm

    Not sure where the hell this goes, so submitted for your consideration. I have the strangest feeling of deja vu with posting this (maybe I brought it up at some other time a year or more back) but whatever:

    View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:[SNIP] There really needs to be a page on the wiki addressing basic/otherwise information the show states, because having to repeat it so many times in different threads throughout the years is tiring.


    View Original PostMonk Ed wrote::lol: Who reads the wiki before posting? (Oh, but I guess it would still at least be easier to link than to type it all up again.)


    True, but there could always be some Stickied thread in Discussion/etc that links to specified articles or one giant page.

    It's just a thought anyway, but I know that the wiki needs all the work and help it can get.

    And uh, I'm the one who brought up Asuka's degree in the Discuss tab about her wiki Article, Wayne was the only one who replied to me/changed it accordingly. I figured the degree is one of those cases that we have no reason to NOT believe what she's [a character is] saying unless there was some other in-show information that contradicts it. Also, nice to see that there are some Japanese sources about her degree. Didn't notice any translations though, I'd offer to churn something out but I can't at the moment and I won't be around the next day or two.
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    Postby Legendary » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:45 pm

    At the end of the day, if they didn't notice it in the show, and they don't notice it on the internet, and they don't read the wiki...


    There's really no fucking way we can count on them reading anything stickied in the Discussion Thread.

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    Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:57 am

    I meant people tend to read EGF over the wiki.

    But yes, that's true.
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    Postby Deepak » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:18 am

    I say we add some of those old ANF discussions to the theory and analysis page. Some are there, most are not.

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    Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:30 pm

    shouldn't this perhaps be merged with the new sticky? Seems to be pretty much the exact same argument, same stances all around, just a year earlier.
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    Postby Reichu » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:43 pm

    View Original PostNemZ wrote:shouldn't this perhaps be merged with the new sticky? Seems to be pretty much the exact same argument, same stances all around, just a year earlier.

    The sticky's overall purpose is more generic than this thread, even if some of the conversations overlap.
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