Sequel theory once again.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:15 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:What conclusions? The movie replays events from the show. How do you even begin to explain that as a sequel without some sort of reset?

Parallel/Alternate universes work a lot like that.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:His response wasn't the best, but you're being highly selective in your criticism here (and I still find it aggravating that you're talking about people being polite and such while giving the the worst offender a free pass).

Worst offender? Starting a discussion in a vague way surely isn't such a bad offence, it's a little silly at worst.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:it's not okay just because a guy on your side of the debate's doing it!

Now we arrive at the gratuitous accusations, I didn't expect anything less from you. Did you at least notice that you are at fault of the same mistake if we follow your logic?
View Original PostBagheera wrote:We had indications of what was going on in the show's finale in the first two episodes

But you have to be a magician or something to guess it after watching only the first two episodes.
View Original PostBagheera wrote: Instead you're saying "well, it could happen" without showing me anything in the movies to indicate that that's what's going on.

Do I have to repeat myself until nausea sets in? It's because of Kaworu's phrases, he seemed to talk like he already experienced this story and it's really hard to believe that they just casually inserted in both movies phrases that could be read in this way.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yeah, the NME isn't done yet, but we see indications of this very early on in ES AO and that show does not replay the events of the original series

Because they're similar but not identical, E7A0 actually shows a past modified by a dimensional flow from an alternate future, NGE and NME seems to be concurrent. Again, why do you think that Anno and Khara are under any obligation of making our life simple by telling us since the beginning if it's a sequel or not? It's possible that this matter will be left unexplained but still open to debate even after NME will be completed, as some people hypothesised (personally I just hope that it won't happen).
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:52 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Parallel/Alternate universes work a lot like that.


But the argument at hand is that it's a sequel, not an AU.

Now we arrive at the gratuitous accusations, I didn't expect anything less from you.


Haven't you noticed by now that ad hominems don't work out very well, particularly when you're making a call for civility in the discussion? You should be more careful when making commentary.

Do I have to repeat myself until nausea sets in? It's because of Kaworu's phrases, he seemed to talk like he already experienced this story and it's really hard to believe that they just casually inserted in both movies phrases that could be read in this way.


But that doesn't mean we're watching a sequel, and as noted earlier they can be read in more mundane ways as well (and that's assuming the two haven't met before in the NME setting).

Because they're similar but not identical, E7A0 actually shows a past modified by a dimensional flow from an alternate future, NGE and NME seems to be concurrent. Again, why do you think that Anno and Khara are under any obligation of making our life simple by telling us since the beginning if it's a sequel or not?


That's a copout. If he wanted us to think it was a sequel he'd show us evidence that that was the case -- he'd make it a central part of the story and lay the foundation for such from day one. That doesn't mean he'd be obvious about it, no, but there would be something there apart from cryptic remarks from a single character. You have yet to present anything apart from Kaworu's remarks that can be credibly read in that fashion.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:01 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But the argument at hand is that it's a sequel, not an AU.

One does not exclude the other, as I said before.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Haven't you noticed by now that ad hominems don't work out very well, particularly when you're making a call for civility in the discussion? You should be more careful when making commentary.

You're a fine one to talk.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:But that doesn't mean we're watching a sequel, and as noted earlier they can be read in more mundane ways as well (and that's assuming the two haven't met before in the NME setting).

In fact I'm saying that it could be a sequel, I'm not saying that I'm certain about it.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's a copout.

Just make what you want of it. :shrug:
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Postby qu4d » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:31 am

Oh come on... weve been through this now how many times?

Was my comment very nice? No, in my opinion Ive been very neutral. Nothing more. Why? Because it is the same thing over and over ad nauseam. If we are going to discuss the sequel stuff, everybody should do their homework and at least try to come up with something that makes/could make sense. Just like the reference with ES AO (personally never seen it) which seems to be absolutely fine.

And I want nothing more from Merkaba than this. But his reaction(s) just showed whats going on...

And again with NME being a sequel to NGE... Kawaru still mentions those things (its the third AGAIN) etc. he could refer to NGE. And if it is a reset (Bagheera explained it very good, again), it might be a sequel.

And again it is about how you define sequel. If NME is one iteration that happens after NGE - what else is this if not a sequel? It would happen chronologically after NGE on the absolute timescale.

But again... Prometheus story is placed ~30 years prior to Alien, but would you call it a prequel?

I was talking to NemZ ealier and talked about this topic with him. NGE is one thing and NME is another, like 2 mountains... but there might be a little bridge in between.

And look at its title - you can (not) advance. Again, how would you even define "advance" here? Look at Rei, on some kind of level she as a person advanced from a person that let herself being slapped in the elevator to a person that protected herself from being slapped, even though shes not even aware of this. Which is a thing that you cant know without having seen the tv show, which is a point that connects both versions.

On a meta-level it's already a sequel imho.

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Postby Lurkis » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:25 am

View Original Postqu4d wrote:And look at its title - you can (not) advance. Again, how would you even define "advance" here? Look at Rei, on some kind of level she as a person advanced from a person that let herself being slapped in the elevator to a person that protected herself from being slapped, even though shes not even aware of this. Which is a thing that you cant know without having seen the tv show, which is a point that connects both versions.

On a meta-level it's already a sequel imho.


I feel like an idiot for not seeing that before, thank you for you insight :3

Would like to say that an AU or PU should count as a sequel. Sequel doesn't have to mean 'takes place directly after' in terms of days and weeks, it could simply mean a connected story taking place during the same time frame of another (if you want to call it a PU) or even before the established events of said original story (if you get all 'Doctor Who wibbly wobbly).

Point is sequel doesn't always mean linear day to week time frame. As well, this doesn't have to be a 'big bang/big crush scenario' when you look at what the FAR were capable of, it's not impossible that during the third impact in NGE, Shinji (having been given the choice) could have asked for a second chance or Rei/Lilith could have given it to him regardless. Thus creating NME as an AU.

I would be pleased to see this as a second shot for Shinji's happiness (as Kaworu hinted towards)

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:07 am

View Original PostLurkis wrote:Point is sequel doesn't always mean linear day to week time frame. As well, this doesn't have to be a 'big bang/big crush scenario' when you look at what the FAR were capable of, it's not impossible that during the third impact in NGE, Shinji (having been given the choice) could have asked for a second chance or Rei/Lilith could have given it to him regardless. Thus creating NME as an AU.


What about the FAR makes you think they're capable of altering reality in this fashion? This, too was addressed upthread.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:50 am

View Original Postqu4d wrote:I was talking to NemZ ealier and talked about this topic with him. NGE is one thing and NME is another, like 2 mountains... but there might be a little bridge in between.


And I disagreed with you, though I can't completely rule anything out because lol Anno.

Please don't drag me into this nonsense.
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Postby qu4d » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:55 am

That was not my intention, sorry :P

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:53 pm

I had hoped that I might have been able to salvage something of this thread, but I'm afraid it has reached the point where the backbiting cancer has become inoperable. It doesn't matter what your viewpoint on the topic is, but descending into "he said, she said" is not the way to do it.

In particular, Bagheera -- I suggest you moderate your posting style, remembering to play the ball not the man. It may help if you reflect on Matthew 7:3 while you do so.
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:52 pm

Staff edit: split tangent from Adams thread: post/867570/What-are-the-Adams/#867570

View Original PostSachi wrote:But MP Evas don't exist in Rebuild, at least not the same ones from EoE. We got a teaser for a very different type of MP Eva in the teaser for 3.0+1.0. Why would an MP Eva be there at the beginning of 1.0?


Cause it's from the previous timeline? I don't know. It's definitely not an adam though, I made that pretty clear on two points.
Maybe that's the very reason the MP evas look different now, they took the one that was at that chalk outline and used it as a basis to build the new ones.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:56 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Cause it's from the previous timeline?

Even though i just pointed out how that would be impossible?
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:16 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Even though i just pointed out how that would be impossible?

No, you didn't post anything that rules out the possibility of past timelines

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:20 pm

Then how are they possible considering the glaring contradictions i mentioned?
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:36 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Then how are they possible considering the glaring contradictions i mentioned?

Which one specifically forbids the existence of a previous timeline?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:40 pm

Loop theories have been discussed at length and pretty thoroughly debunked in other threads on this site.
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:53 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Loop theories have been discussed at length and pretty thoroughly debunked in other threads on this site.

I don't think they have been, although it's reasonable that you might think so

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Postby Joseki » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:54 pm

Is there any concrete proof against a loop that doesn't involve NGE and EoE? I can only remember convincing arguments against sequel theories.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:06 pm

From what i recall, the closest thing to an actual loop would be Kaworu, though that could simply be less of a time loop, and more just the past times he woke up from those weird coffins on the Moon
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Postby Sachi » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:11 pm

Self-contained loop is much less problematic than sequel theory.

For the MP Evas from EoE to be relevant in any way, you need to buy into sequel theory. There is no compelling evidence that convincingly supports it however. If one is going to use sequel argument to explain other aspects of the films, such as the chalk outline, they need to first establish that sequel theory is reasonable. The evidence put forward by sequel theorists can be much more simply explained using just the Rebuild canon though. Red seas? 2I. Chalk outline? An Adam like the one on the moon. Kaworu's ominous lines remain the only mystery left, and could potentially be explained in a number of different ways.

I may split this thread again when I have time, but for now let's take all further discussion of sequel theory to this thread: thread/13212/Sequel-theory-once-again/100/
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:17 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Self-contained loop is much less problematic than sequel theory.

For the MP Evas from EoE to be relevant in any way, you need to buy into sequel theory. There is no compelling evidence that convincingly supports it however. If one is going to use sequel argument to explain other aspects of the films, such as the chalk outline, they need to first establish that sequel theory is reasonable.

The SDAT's track 27 has no logical explanation that doesn't have to do with sequel theory. Kaworu's 'this time' comments have no logical explanation that doesn't have to do with sequel theory. The strongest explanation for the chalk outline is that it's an MP Eva which somehow got here. So sequel theory looks strong to me.


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