What if Shinji...

Bagheera · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: ARRGh me DUMKOPHS! BE]

Brainman wrote:

Using a female character's tragedy to motivate a central male character towards some sort of action is the kind of banal bs I hope this steers clear of.

Were you sleeping during 2.xx, then? NGE avoided this. NME is built upon it.

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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Gendo'sPapa · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject:

Why is this a thread? This kind of pointless speculation (which by the way SHOULD entirely be in the Evangelion 3.0 Speculation thread & not worth it's own) is the same kind've crap that comes up with every sequel discussion.

Shinji is not going to die in 3.0 because this is still HIS story. Shinji COULD die in 4.0 but he's not going to in 3.0.

This thread should not really exist. Waste of inter-space.

TheFriskyIan · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject:

AuraTwilight wrote:

Yea, because she had pretty much no personality. Asuka without the bitch is...well...Asuka's face.

I don't like Asuka with the Bitch, she's too much of a bitch.

EDIT: I keep rereading that last sentence and I feel like a pimp.

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Brainman · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: ARRGh me DUMKOPHS! BE]

Ceimoa Nan wrote:

You mean like what they did in End of Evangelion?

I'm actually glad you brought that up. Because it's really the opposite of what I'm talking about.

To help clarifiy, this is the kind of setup I'm referring to:

Scene:
-Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star sees some little girl get punched in the stomach by bad guys.
-He wants to blow their heads up.
-He blows their heads up.
-The little girl is saved.

See, the thing is, the girl's torment in this context is ultimately immaterial except that it incites Kenshiro into acting. The reason they're showing her pain in the first place is to provide a reason for Kenshiro wanting to blow up some people's heads, and more importantly, to get us to sympathize with this desire. Thus, the things she goes through are essentially motivation for the main character, and not actually contributing to any growth on her character's part.

Not that I'm accusing NME for doing it this bluntly, but to provide a counter example, Asuka's death scene in EoE is totally different. Asuka's fight against the MP Evas and final demise is her scene. The movie overall is about Shinji, but -that scene- belongs to Asuka. It's her eye getting gouged out, it's her guts getting ripped out, it's her arm splitting in half. Her Shakespearean departure isn't about Shinji's fear or distrust of his father or even his lack of progress in reaching out to others. It's her (temporary) finale. Shinji himself is a noncontributing factor in this. He merely reacts to it.

See, the difference is that Asuka in this context is not an accessory to anything. She's not there to provide motivation to a more important male character or contribute to another development. It's focusing on her struggle and providing her character with a big finish. And really, if a character like Asuka has to go, she should go out trying to fight even when her guts are spilled out on the ground. (And she even lives on beyond this scene, so there's that too.) As far as death scenes go, they don't get much grander.

So what I'm hoping against is them writing something where Asuka gets killed specifically to incite Shinji into wanting to do something. What kind of irritates me is when people think we need reminding that Shinji is a main character. Since when does that mean every other character needs to tie their actions into the main character's growth? In most movies, secondary characters have their own scenes that don't pertain to the main character's arc. Happens all the time. It's actually how you should do it.

So, if Asuka meets her end in NME, I hope it's for her own character's sake instead of them using her death to act as a frame for some other character's development. She should have something of her own.

Bagheera

Quote:

Were you sleeping during 2.xx, then? NGE avoided this. NME is built upon it.

You know I wasn't. And if you read between the lines in this post, you'll know what I didn't like about the new Bardiel scene.

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Bagheera · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject:

TheFriskyIan wrote:

I don't like Asuka with the Bitch, she's too much of a bitch.

The way to get past this is to take a closer reading of the character with her age and background in mind. At that point you go from "bitch" to "13-year-old girl with serious mental health issues," which makes her much more tolerable.

Brainman wrote:

You know I wasn't. And if you read between the lines in this post, you'll know what I didn't like about the new Bardiel scene.

I'm just pointing out that NME has been doing exactly what you describe for half of its existence by this point, so the question is less "will it happen in Q?" and more "how bad will it be?"

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If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Brainman · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject:

^
Well, and to me her character isn't any meaner than, say, Misty from Pokemon or the one girl from the Tale of Two Robots segment in Robot Carnival. So I don't get the point of this argument in the first damn place.

Yeah, she's bitchy, but not uniquely so (until it gets to the later half, which is emotionally abrasive in general).

Quote:

I'm just pointing out that NME has been doing exactly what you describe for half of its existence by this point, so the question is less "will it happen in Q?" and more "how bad will it be?"

Well, sure. They could still fix it though. They've got an additional movie to work with, so anything's possible. And really, I can't do anything but hope anyway. So why not?

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Warren Peace · Lilin Joined: 28 May 2010 Age: 82

Bagheera wrote:

Were you sleeping during 2.xx, then? NGE avoided this. NME is built upon it.

Were you sleeping during the very first episode of the series when "a female character's tragedy" was used to "motivate a central male character towards some sort of action"? Shinji's paternalistic nature is at the core of him, for better or worse (usually worse). He presents this impulse as altruistic, but it's really just selfish. Asuka unmasks him in the EoE coffee scene. He's the same in Rebuild.

TheFriskyIan · Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject:

Bagheera wrote:

The way to get past this is to take a closer reading of the character with her age and background in mind. At that point you go from "bitch" to "13-year-old girl with serious mental health issues," which makes her much more tolerable.

Not for me.

I tried to look at all that deep crap about her to see if I could give her the Benefit of the Doubt. But I just can't when she doesn't even try to stop acting like a rotten apple.

The only reason she was likable to me in 2.0 because she rarely did anything that made her look like a selfish pile of teenage hormones.

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Bagheera · Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject:

TheFriskyIan wrote:

I tried to look at all that deep crap about her to see if I could give her the Benefit of the Doubt. But I just can't when she doesn't even try to stop acting like a rotten apple.

How so? What does she do that is even all that rotten? How is she so irredeemable that her past and current situations don't make her sympathetic? How is it that childhood trauma, chronic neglect, mind rape, and all the rest don't offset "selfish pile of teenage hormones"?

Seriously, I don't expect you to love her, but get some perspective here.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Warren Peace · Lilin Joined: 28 May 2010 Age: 82

TheFriskyIan wrote:

Not for me.

I tried to look at all that deep crap about her to see if I could give her the Benefit of the Doubt. But I just can't when she doesn't even try to stop acting like a rotten apple.

That's the crux of it. Shinji's messed up, but at least tries to overcome it. Asuka doesn't try. She doesn't see anything wrong with the way she treats people, so why would she try?

Bagheera · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:40 am Post subject:

Warren Peace wrote:

That's the crux of it. Shinji's messed up, but at least tries to overcome it. Asuka doesn't try. She doesn't see anything wrong with the way she treats people, so why would she try?

Episode 22 would like a word with you.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

**Reichu** · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:08 am Post subject:

Bagheera wrote:

Episode 22 would like a word with you.

And what would it say?

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KnightmareX13 · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject:

Reichu wrote:

And what would it say?

Probably "Rape me" like that Nirvana song. bring on the crazed Asuka fans

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Bagheera · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject:

Reichu wrote:

And what would it say?

That she's well aware of how deep her problems go and how they affect both her and others, and that she's too messed up to do anything about it.

Come to think of it, episode 9 would probably like a word with him as well. Episode 11, too, actually, and probably episode 13 as well. Oh, and definitely episode 15. And hey, throw in episodes 17 and 18 while we're at it.

Point being, Asuka's not some little monster utterly devoid of empathy or whatever. She actually thinks about others quite a bit, and she does make efforts to connect with people and get along with them. She just doesn't know how to do that effectively.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

TheFriskyIan · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject:

Bagheera wrote:

Point being, Asuka's not some little monster utterly devoid of empathy or whatever. She actually thinks about others quite a bit, and she does make efforts to connect with people and get along with them. She just doesn't know how to do that effectively.

More like at all.

Seriously, when she's not calling Shinji an Idiot, she's calling Rei a doll. Throughout the show she had a habit of pissing me off. Every episode focused on her tried to show that she had troubles and I can see that. But when she downsizes those that try to help, it makes me see that she has very little care for them.

In short: She's a narcissistic Bitch.

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Bagheera · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject:

TheFriskyIan wrote:

Seriously, when she's not calling Shinji an Idiot, she's calling Rei a doll. Throughout the show she had a habit of pissing me off. Every episode focused on her tried to show that she had troubles and I can see that. But when she downsizes those that try to help, it makes me see that she has very little care for them.

No one was trying to help. That's the point (and not just with Asuka -- all of the kids were hung out to dry by the adults around them). When someone finally did try to help -- Hikari -- she accepted it with gratitude.

Quote:

In short: She's a narcissistic Bitch.

It's hard to be a narcissist when you hate yourself more than anything else. It's also hard to play nice with a guy when he doesn't even notice you're hitting on him, or with a girl who has the personality of a piece of furniture and who won't do anything unless her creepy CO orders it. It's even harder when your alcoholic of a guardian throws you to the wolves on a regular basis and does nothing whatsoever to actually, you know, guard you.

In short: She's really not.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

**Ornette** · Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject:

Maybe you guys can continue here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/12381/Why-do-people-like-Asuka/

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