Being an Evangelion fan.

**Reichu**

Alaska Slim wrote:

Of my own opinion, a "true" fan is someone who watched Eva, took something meaningful from it, then simply walked away.

How does that jibe with Anno's inability to "simply walk away" from it?

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Der Kommissar · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject:

Anno, at least, has a purely practical reason to keep milking the Eva cow. Dosh.

Not saying that that's what he's doing (nor, really, do I care), but easy money makes for a fairly practical reason to fixate on something.

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CJD · Test Subject Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Gender: Male

Der Kommissar wrote:

Anno, at least, has a purely practical reason to keep milking the Eva cow. Dosh.

Not saying that that's what he's doing (nor, really, do I care), but easy money makes for a fairly practical reason to fixate on something.

I'm sure the crushing realization that he achieved his magnum opus in his 30's doesn't help.

Shinato

Alaska Slim wrote:

Dammit, you're right, scratch another role-model.

I'm really running out of those... William O. Eareckson, you're the only one I can really think of anymore, but dammit, why'd you have to die a lonely death?

By virtue of being here, we're all obsessing, I'm no different. I was simply already far down the rabbit hole when I hit upon it, plus I actually do like many of the people here regardless.

There's a difference between obsession and wanting to share/relate with others.

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Alaska Slim

Reichu wrote:

How does that jibe with Anno's inability to "simply walk away" from it?

How do you know that's not his intention now? To, with Rebuild, destroy the obsession he accidentally created from within?

But to really get at the question, how about the fact he hadn't watched it in 10 years?

Shinato wrote:

There's a difference between obsession and wanting to share/relate with others.

Again, how you're fan, or more to the point, derive meaning from the show, is up to you.

Hideaki Anno's objective was to make Otakus self-conscious of themselves, and encouraged them to strike out a little more into reality, just as he himself was attempting to do.

For the Otakus to use Evangelion itself as a reinforcement of their old habits, is counter-productive to that goal.

Hideaki Anno didn't want them getting caught up in the trivia, or backgrounds of the characters or the storylines, he just wanted them to reform a bit, and get on with their lives.

That's why I say; A true fan is someone who watches Evangelion, derives some meaning from it, and then simply walks away. Hopefully, they go on to practice and build upon whatever it is they learned.

To get caught up in minutiae of the show is simply to stagnate, and for all us Otaku-esce people here (myself included), even regress a bit.

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Bagheera

Alaska Slim wrote:

Hideaki Anno didn't want them getting caught up in the trivia, or backgrounds of the characters or the storylines, he just wanted them to reform a bit, and get on with their lives.

That's what he claims, but to then make a show that rewards heavy analysis, and that hangs together quite well under scrutiny, completely undermines that intent. It's like making Rei moe as fuck when what he really wanted was for her to be all creepy and shit.

In short, what he wants and what he does are two different things. Calling us lousy fans because we engage the work directly rather than the creator's intent is a bit off.

Quote:

To get caught up in minutiae of the show is simply to stagnate, and for all us Otaku-esce people here (myself included), even regress a bit.

That's a generalization. It's a hobby -- having hobbies is fine so long as you don't let them rule your life. If you manage to keep things in perspective it's fine to put a lot of thought into one particular work (and that might have been Anno's intent: pay attention to Eva, but don't lock yourself in the basement while doing so).

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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Shinato

Alaska Slim wrote:

How do you know that's not his intention now? To, with Rebuild, destroy the obsession he accidentally created from within?

But to really get at the question, how about the fact he hadn't watched it in 10 years?

Again, how you're fan, or more to the point, derive meaning from the show, is up to you.

Hideaki Anno's objective was to make Otakus self-conscious of themselves, and encouraged them to strike out a little more into reality, just as he himself was attempting to do.

For the Otakus to use Evangelion itself as a reinforcement of their old habits, is counter-productive to that goal.

Hideaki Anno didn't want them getting caught up in the trivia, or backgrounds of the characters or the storylines, he just wanted them to reform a bit, and get on with their lives.

That's why I say; A true fan is someone who watches Evangelion, derives some meaning from it, and then simply walks away. Hopefully, they go on to practice and build upon whatever it is they learned.

To get caught up in minutiae of the show is simply to stagnate, and for all us Otaku-esce people here (myself included), even regress a bit.

I tend to think this is an amazing medium for growth, though. I've met so many people throughout the last 6 years of my life, everyone is amazing in their own right and they only want to grow. Sometimes that may mean taking a step back but how can you always keep moving forward? It may be childish or a bit naive, but I have seen this work bring so many people together and I don't see how that would go against Anno, or anyone's intentions. Is there pointless discussion? Yes. Are feelings hurt on a regular basis over seemingly pointless things that people have taken over a decade to work out? Yes. However, this is only a small part of people and were it not for NGE we wouldn't be able to see/share in it at all. There are other places, too. There are sections where everyone isn't going "ZOMG NGE". If I were to message you it would be only to say hey in the hopes of knowing you better. NGE may come up since it's how we have come to interact, but that's the great part, it probably wouldn't. ^^

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Alaska Slim

Bagheera wrote:

That's what he claims, but to then make a show that rewards heavy analysis,

Meh, my conception of what Shinji had learned going through instrumentality hasn't really changed since I first saw Evangelion.

Insular, views he's protecting himself from others when really he's just protecting himself and his few pleasures. Though by the end willing to do so, still had(s) to learn how to love & engage others to find inner equilibrium.

But of course, that's what I see.

My point is, it doesn't take a full-on analysis to derive some meaning from the show. It's more comprehensive that way, to be sure, but in doing that the Otakus risk just falling back into themselves.

Bagheera wrote:

That's a generalization.

Saying that's alright to indulge is like saying it's alright for an historic alcoholic buy a couple 6-packs. Nothing bad may come of it, still, was it really that wise?

The people Evangelion was meant for were those who were lacking perspective in the first place. It is difficult, though not impossible, to jump from where they were straight into a life where they're living the message. Such individuals lack balance, and you can't expect the balance to just "materialize" after watching Eva, balance comes from practicing, then maintaining.

In the end, some alcoholics never go to a bar again, because they simply feel they lack the strength. The old emotions and attachments get a stirring, and lead them astray.

Shinato wrote:

However, this is only a small part of people

Actually, from the way Hideaki Anno argues "Nation of Children" and all, it seems he thinks it's a major sub-set of the Japanese population.

I say, it's also pervasive outside the Eastern hemisphere.

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Bagheera

Alaska Slim wrote:

Saying that's alright to indulge is like saying it's alright for an historic alcoholic buy a couple 6-packs.

It's really not. Not even a little bit.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Alaska Slim

^If you recall, 1/3 of young Japanese "herbivore" men do not even have the willpower to have sex.

Yes, it really is.

Perhaps Japan is an extreme example, but then again, it is who Evangelion was made for.

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"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Bagheera

Alaska Slim wrote:

Yes, it really is.

No, it's not. Alcoholism is a disease, and it kills people. Being an otaku doesn't. No one ever got killed by someone who was driving while otaku. No one ever beat their spouse in an otaku rage. No one ever died of otaku poisoning. As someone who actually has issues with alcohol abuse I find the damn comparison insulting, so knock it the fuck off.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Alaska Slim

Bagheera wrote:

No, it's not. Alcoholism is a disease,

It's a compulsion, I'd even go as far as a disorder. It's something that can be driven by genetic factors and long-term conditioning of sorts. I've been on the otherside of it.

Bagheera wrote:

and it kills people. Being an otaku doesn't.

It doesn't? You don't think shirking human contact and relationships doesn't somehow lessen quality of life, and erode mental stability or morality?

Addiction of any sort is destructive, and can lead people down dark avenues. Conditioning of any sort whether it be external or internal, forced or self-assumed, has consequences.

The meta consequence of Otakudom, is people whom are sensitive to such an extreme, that they cannot stand prolonged or intimate contact with anyone save for animated/acted approximations of people whom they do not need to answer to.

Bagheera wrote:

I find the damn comparison insulting, so knock it the fuck off.

I'm sorry I brushed so close to home for you, but I'm not listing a "hypothetical" here, this is personal experience.

Without a drug or a drop of alcohol to even explain it, I became apathetic, uncaring, uninvolved, and all as a consequence of sealing myself off. I was cruel to people in middle of grieving, I left my own struggling mother to fend for herself. And the moment I realized how inhuman I was becoming, my own self-loathing exploded.

It has taken me years to wake up in morning, and not have this same mental conversation each time;

"You're an asshole"

I know.

"You're loser"

I get it.

"You're just a Goddamn screw up."

Yes I KNOW, I GOT IT, NOW WILL YOU STFU ALREADY?!?

This is Evangelion Bagheera, you're not the only one here whose had shit to deal with. Honestly, I wasn't trying to undermine the gravity of your own personal experiences, but you are doing that to mine.

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liquidus118

Reichu wrote:

How does that jibe with Anno's inability to "simply walk away" from it?

The way Anno (and other creators who made 'that' thing in their earlier career) talks about it I feel it's more the show follows him around than he can't walk away from it. From what I've gathered I thought Anno was making Rebuild specifically so he could walk away from it all.
It backfired unbelievably hard, but still.

On-topic:
I think the main issue is there are people who really, REALLY like Eva and people who really, REALLY hate Eva. The people who REALLY like Eva will go around saying it's the best anime ever and oh so deep and 'you just didn't understand it' and this is going to rub people the wrong way, even if the show does have a lot of depth and maybe whoever these hypothetical Eva fans are talking to just genuinely didn't understand it. That was actually the case for me; I thought the show was an incomprehensible piece of shit and began ragging on it at this place I used to frequent and someone there, instead of saying it was too deep for me or I just didn't get it, said something along the lines of "Eva is more of a character piece where the focus is on the characters and their struggles with the plot serving as vehicle for that. Your questions are answered in the show, you just have to pay attention and rewatch it to get all of those answers. Try rewatching the ending with that in mind." and so, grudgingly, I did. 90 minutes later I'm going back to that same place saying that Eva is amazing and everyone should watch it at least once.

In my experience Eva fans, particularly new ones, have a habit praising the show very highly. To people who haven't seen the show, don't like it or are indifferent to it this is going to be annoying.

Also, the show starts as a happy if cliche mecha anime and ends by basically insulting* people who watch too much anime via the brutal psychological or physical destruction of the characters they just formed a connection to. That's going to fuck with a lot of people's expectations and heads, particularly if it hits too close to home or they just wanted a quiet mecha show to watch.

*Perhaps 'insult' is too negative a word. Perhaps 'confronts them with the fact that they're running away from reality and encourages them to stop living in 'dreams' ' is a little more accurate. It most certainly is 'brutal' though.

**Reichu**

Alaska Slim wrote:

If you recall, 1/3 of young Japanese "herbivore" men do not even have the willpower to have sex.

Here's an assessment of the "young Japanese people aren't interested in sex" media stories, from someone with access to the Japanese media.

(...And is your subject header implying that no male has ever managed to masturbate thinking about Evas? I'm pretty sure that's not true. Every single one of us is the devil inside.

Every single one of us is the devil inside.

)

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-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Shinji's mummy
Shinji needs to be cool like Kaji and grow some melons. -Dr. Nick
I shall file this under things that were never given much thought by the production team. -Anonymous_Evafan
Farmer Hoggett knew that little ideas that tickled and nagged and refused to go away should never be ignored, for in them lie the seeds of destiny. -Narrator, "Babe"

Bagheera

Reichu wrote:

Here's an assessment of the "young Japanese people aren't interested in sex" media stories, from someone with access to the Japanese media.

I have been learning to distrust the Huffington Post lately. Now I don't think I'll believe anything printed therein without independent verification from another, more reliable source.

Also, as expected otakudom isn't hurting people. Really.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Alaska Slim · Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject: The Youth of Japan

^ Read the testimonies in Speed Tribes by Karl Taro Greenfeld, then tell me that.

Addiction Bagheera, it doesn't occur just to alcoholics, take a look at the other 12-step programs.

Workaholics, Gambling, Sex, Debt, Clutter, etc. whether the source of the addiction is chemical or benign, either way it is destructive, and it does harm people.

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"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Bagheera · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:45 am Post subject: Re: The Youth of Japan

Alaska Slim wrote:

^ Read the testimonies in Speed Tribes by Karl Taro Greenfeld, then tell me that.

Ah, you do know that's a work of fiction, written by an author who lives in the Pacific Palisades, right?

I'll go with the guy who got his stats from the Japanese Ministry and the Japanese Family Planning Association, thanks.

Quote:

Addiction Bagheera, it doesn't occur just to alcoholics, take a look at the other 12-step programs.

Workaholics, Gambling, Sex, Debt, Clutter, etc. whether the source of the addiction is chemical or benign, either way it is destructive, and it does harm people.

And that's a problem with addiction, not otakus.

(and of course, alcohol's dangerous properties are completely independent of its addictive nature; delayed reactions, poor impulse control, alcohol poisoning, physical ailments from long term abuse, and all the things I mentioned above -- DWI-related deaths, domestic abuse, etc. Couple that with the fact that, if you are addicted and try to quit, it can kill you, and that makes it a bad point of comparison for pretty much everything. Hell, even heroin addiction isn't as fucked up as alcoholism. That's how bad it is.)

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Alaska Slim · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: Re: The Youth of Japan

Bagheera wrote:

Ah, you do know that's a work of fiction,

Too literal, he changed names and details so he wouldn't be outing anyone specifically, his stories however were based on people in Japan he interacted with after living there for several years.

Porn industry workers, some Yakuza kid, A 3rd-generation Korean Zainichi, a Neo-Nationalist, and yes indeed, Otakus. He goes into details on how the culture operates, and postulates the on-going theories of why they might be that way. And yes, he has sources for that, it isn't something he merely pulled out of his ass.

A bit dated, this was back in 1995, but it gives some context for what Hideaki Anno himself likely thought he was coming up against.

Bagheera wrote:

(and of course, alcohol's dangerous properties are completely independent of its addictive nature; delayed reactions, poor impulse control, alcohol poisoning, physical ailments from long term abuse, and all the things I mentioned above -- DWI-related deaths, domestic abuse, etc. Couple that with the fact that, if you are addicted and try to quit, it can kill you, and that makes it a bad point of comparison for pretty much everything. Hell, even heroin addiction isn't as fucked up as alcoholism. That's how bad it is.)

All given, but it still sounds to me like you're discounting how much psychological responses by themselves can deride people.

Whether it's gamers killing one another after virtual rivalries become real, Gamblers habitually throwing away everything they own plus credit from loan sharks and where it can lead, or people burying themselves in trash , hurting members of their own family when they try to get rid of just a bit of it, only for their own clutter to kill them in the end... It's the mind that's the most crucial.

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"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Bagheera · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: Re: The Youth of Japan

Alaska Slim wrote:

Too literal, he changed names and details so he wouldn't be outing anyone specifically, his stories however were based on people in Japan he interacted with after living there for several years.

Alaska, step back and think about this. You're using the accounts of a young Yakuza, a nightclub hostess, an office girl, a motorcycle gangster, a hacker, an ultra-right-wing nationalist, and 'Choco Bon-Bon', a porn star, to claim that the otaku lifestyle has somehow given rise to a generation of "herbivore males" uninterested in sex, despite the fact that data provided by Japan's Ministry of Health (data which is actually representative of the general population and not obtained from the experiences of a half-dozen people) claims exactly the opposite.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I'll stick with the Ministry of Health's data, thanks.

Quote:

All given, but it still sounds to me like you're discounting how much psychological responses by themselves can deride people.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that comparing psychological issues to physical and chemical addiction to a toxin that has profound effects on decision-making and sociological behavior even in small doses is bogus. The hikikomori phenomenon (which is the part that's the problem, as otakudom itself has no real correlation with one's social acumen) is a real social issue, but it's one that's addressed by going outside and talking to people. Alcoholism is addressed with a twelve-step program. There's really nothing to be gained in comparing the two.

Even comparing it to other psychological addictions isn't all that helpful, as the issue is less being addicted to . . . what? Anime? Gaming? . . . than it is detaching from and hiding from life. That's a psycholgical issue, yes, but it's not an addiction. It's a different sort of problem that has to be addressed in different ways.

_________________
Chris Campbell
If you're wondering about the title, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

gatotsu911 · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject:

I mean, Evangelion has some supremely shitty fans, but so do like at least half of all anime that are worth watching. A crappy fanbase is hardly reason to discount the work itself. You'd be needlessly depriving yourself of a lot of great stuff if you did.

EDIT: Annnnnnnnd holy shit what has this thread turned into

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Butterscotch · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject:

Der Kommissar wrote:

Not really?

Sometimes it pays to look at why people are criticizing you with an objective eye.

Quote:

yeah. Ability to be self-critical is important quality to have and criticisms by others can help cultivating this quality.

I should of explained myself abit more. Yes that is true it is good to have a good judge of character. What I meant was people can be quick to judge someone just for their interests eg all Eva fans are anal, goths are pretentious before they even get to know the person. People will always be stereotyped for how they dress and for their interests and can be narrow minded not seeing the big picture that is my opinion.

Well the Evafans I met either online and about have been sound no complaints.