The Ultimate Truth of Evangelion

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Postby Alaska Slim » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:19 am

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:Nothing is known about seeds from the plot,


Plenty is known, we know they're called seeds, we know Adam and Lilith shouldn't be on the same planet, and we know combining them means "God-like" status. That's all in the series/EoE.


View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:nothing is known about how angels feel the seed so this is a pure speculation not backed by facts.


Plenty more facts in the CI;

Two Seeds of Life are not needed on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels — Adam-based life — became active under their respective tactics for survival and success.


Looking for Adam... sounds like Gaghiel to me. Strange how it knew Adam was in the area, like a 6th sense. And oh yes, that it was looking for Adam WAS the implication, that's not speculation.


View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:Much more simpler. Nothing was known to the general public and UN about Adam and the origin of Evas

The U.N. Committee is just a SEELE front, so they to some degree knew.

I can believe in keeping trade secrets, secret, but in the end, it was also political control. There was a battle for the budget mentioned in episode 7, which the U.S. had to be "convinced" to approve, not to mention Ritsuko's "man cannot live by Eva alone" bit.

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:The same scene confirms the opposite, because there is no reason to prevent the Unit 01 extraction by bakelite


To use it under controlled conditions. SEELE's plan for 3I was different from what played out. Are you saying they LIED to the JSSDF soldiers over confirmation to kill the pilots? That too would have kept EVA-01 from going places.
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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:52 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Plenty is known, we know they're called seeds, we know Adam and Lilith shouldn't be on the same planet, and we know combining them means "God-like" status. That's all in the series/EoE.


Facts, or you incorrect (there are only facts about extraterrestial nature, but nothing more). The fact that there is should be only one seed contradicts nothing and only supports Misato's statement (so you could deny nothing by using only it).

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Plenty more facts in the CI;


You should explain how CI contradicts Seele's actions. Generally, CI should not contradict anything from the series (or there will be no connection) and you should use only the information available from the series, because it's enough to build a plot without contradictions.

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:The U.N. Committee is just a SEELE front, so they to some degree knew.

I can believe in keeping trade secrets, secret, but in the end, it was also political control. There was a battle for the budget mentioned in episode 7, which the U.S. had to be "convinced" to approve, not to mention Ritsuko's "man cannot live by Eva alone" bit.


U.N. knew nothing about the scrolls, angels, Adam and Lilith - they tried to use conventional weapon against angels, but it's useless. It was an internal Nerv's showdown, and it should be presented to the government conveniently (there is a three-layer conspiracy if you remember).

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:To use it under controlled conditions.


Entity does not supported by facts.

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:SEELE's plan for 3I was different from what played out. Are you saying they LIED to the JSSDF soldiers over confirmation to kill the pilots? That too would have kept EVA-01 from going places.


Explanation by the conspiracy does not requires introduction of additional entities, such as above. And there is no need in pilot in either case, it was planned to use original Lilith body, but there was already completed "messiah" which also could be and actually was used (pilot is only significant when there are two "messiah" exist simultaneously, he was actually a controller of Fuyutsuki/Yui's scenario which Gendo actually supposed to be), so this argument is useless.

And, you still need to provide a credible motivation for Seele's action described above.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:43 am

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:You have Misato's statement which states that angels and people are destined to hate each other. It should be intrinsically true because derived from Kaji's truth.


Which was derived from information obtained from SEELE. Don't forget, Kaji thought the giant in TD was Adam! You don't get to beg the question like this; if SEELE's information is a lie you can't use it to support your claim that their information was a lie!

I show you facts again. It's one of two major Anno's fails because it's very hard to notice this (other is the contradictory way to show how Gendo started the complementation project, and it's also corrected in the Rebuild) Gendo states this in the Rebuild directly.


The NTE doesn't have anything to do with NGE. Please limit your arguments in this context to primary and secondary canon for NGE, leaving the NTE and all associated material out of it.

I shown you that you can not prove not disprove this, there are no sources of this information other than Seele, and Seele's actions contradict to their statements. Can you make conclusions?


I can't even understand what you're saying here. There are too many "not"s here, and you keep fixating on SEELE when they aren't really relevant to the question. If we're talking about the Angels motivations we should be looking at the Angels themselves, not SEELE. And the Angels suggest they do want Complementation, and that they are after Adam (the "first mother", as Kaworu put it). Whether or not this would actually result in an Impact event is an open question (one usefully informed by looking at 2I IMO, but that's a separate discussion), but you go to far in your conclusions on the matter.

You have no motivation to disguise Lilith as Adam and move the embryo from the Tokyo-3 if you believe that information about angels from Seele is true.


Of course you do. Gendo wants the Adam embryo so that he can arrange for his version of 3I (which involves the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith, and/or the union of the Fruit of Life and the Fruit of Wisdom in one body). That's an altogether separate matter from the Angels and what would happen were they to meet up with Adam (which is an impossibility during the show, of course) and even less from what would happen were they to meet up with Lilith (which might be just as disastrous).

The fact that SEELE lied about one thing does not mean they lied about everything.

Again, I encountered no people yet who are able to answer questions without contradictions,


All of the questions you've provided so far have been answered fully and completely, with no contradictions in sight. I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.

But you still not resolved contradictions, so your picture at least not complete.


You haven't provided examples of these contradictions. I would suggest you slow down, think carefully about what you want to say, and present a coherent argument instead of making assertions and calling people deluded if they don't agree with you.

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:Generally, CI should not contradict anything from the series (or there will be no connection) and you should use only the information available from the series, because it's enough to build a plot without contradictions.


It's true that the CI should only be used if it doesn't contradict information from the show, but it's not true that we should only rely on information from the show. The CI was penned with input from Anno, and is second-tier canon (i.e. it is something we accept as valid so long as it does not introduce obvious contradictions when analyzing the show; to date the only major conflict we've encountered involved SEELE's goals for 3I, but that problem lies beyond the scope of this discussion).

Explanation by the conspiracy does not requires introduction of additional entities, such as above. And there is no need in pilot in either case, it was planned to use original Lilith body, but there was already completed "messiah" which also could be and actually was used (pilot is only significant when there are two "messiah" exist simultaneously, he was actually a controller of Fuyutsuki/Yui's scenario which Gendo actually supposed to be), so this argument is useless.


No, we don't know any of this. None of it is confirmed as true. Many indications in the show suggest that having a pilot for Unit 01 was essential. Remember that SEELE's plan involved a lot of contingencies, and that Yui's and Gendo's plans likely did as well. One part of SEELE's plan involved using the Lance and Lilith, while another involved using the MPEs and Unit 01. It's entirely possible that a pilot was needed in the latter case (if for no other reason than because the soul in Unit 01 might not have cooperated otherwise).

That said, some of us (myself included) lean more heavily on the CI than we probably ought, but even still that doesn't mean the information contained therein should be dismissed. It's helpful for making sense of some of the show's more obscure points.

Again, you're making an awful lot of assumptions here without backing them up. You need to slow down and present your arguments more carefully.

And, you still need to provide a credible motivation for Seele's action described above.


Which one? Killing the pilots? We don't even know that order came from SEELE. It's possible SEELE just set the JSSDF loose and the order to kill the pilots was generated internally. Again, SEELE's plan involved lots of moving parts. If the pilot's there, fine. If not, also fine. They didn't care one way or the other (though they probably would have had they known more about Rei and her relationship with Shinji).
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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:28 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Which was derived from information obtained from SEELE. Don't forget, Kaji thought the giant in TD was Adam! You don't get to beg the question like this; if SEELE's information is a lie you can't use it to support your claim that their information was a lie!


You don't get it. There is a three-layer conspiracy. Ritsuko (as a former deeply involved member of Gehirn, she is a lead engineer) knows the truth (the top layer) and tells Kaji to not to get too deep (at the bar when he had passed the charm to her, if you remember). The truth was from the topmost layer. The mid layer is necessary to motivate Nerv staff to complete the project, the outer layer is necessary to hide all from UN.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The NTE doesn't have anything to do with NGE. Please limit your arguments in this context to primary and secondary canon for NGE, leaving the NTE and all associated material out of it.


You should not consider this as arguments. But you could not deny Misato's statement.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I can't even understand what you're saying here. There are too many "not"s here, and you keep fixating on SEELE when they aren't really relevant to the question. If we're talking about the Angels motivations we should be looking at the Angels themselves, not SEELE. And the Angels suggest they do want Complementation, and that they are after Adam (the "first mother", as Kaworu put it). Whether or not this would actually result in an Impact event is an open question (one usefully informed by looking at 2I IMO, but that's a separate discussion), but you go to far in your conclusions on the matter.


Actually, I don't intended to speak about algels' version of the complementation, because you also don't spoke about it (sorry for that), but this is a pure speculation, not based on any facts (the third impact from angels is a statement which could not be proved or disproved, and the statement about that angels should return to Adam could be disproved). Seele is the only possible source of the information about the third impact from angels. You may read the discussion again.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Of course you do. Gendo wants the Adam embryo so that he can arrange for his version of 3I (which involves the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith, and/or the union of the Fruit of Life and the Fruit of Wisdom in one body). That's an altogether separate matter from the Angels and what would happen were they to meet up with Adam (which is an impossibility during the show, of course) and even less from what would happen were they to meet up with Lilith (which might be just as disastrous).

The fact that SEELE lied about one thing does not mean they lied about everything.


You only put emphasis at the fact that the embryo was out of Tokyo-3 and tell that the motivation doesn't matter. Very nice explanation.
The fact, is this a lie or not, defines the motives for the second impact, creation of the Gehirn organization and Evas in principle.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:All of the questions you've provided so far have been answered fully and completely, with no contradictions in sight. I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.


There is a contradiction which you have not resolved: Seele's agenda: Adam is absolutely valuable and should be protected from contacts with angels by any means; truth: Lilith is absolutely valuable and should be protected from contacts with angels by any means, although angel (but not Adam) to Lilith contact will not produce an impact, and Adam is not so valuable. How do you resolve it?

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You haven't provided examples of these contradictions. I would suggest you slow down, think carefully about what you want to say, and present a coherent argument instead of making assertions and calling people deluded if they don't agree with you.


I provided them. One at the paragraph above (in many variants), the behavior of the military in EoE (the previous post), [not obvious] reason to murder Kaji (which actually is not a contradiction, but you have to admit it only if there is a tree-layer conspiracy and the govt. knows nothing, this will raise contradictions in the opposite cases), why Kaworu hadn't felt Lilith (a claim that he could not have other sources of the information other than Seele, it could be proved in the other way, which was also shown). Please read carefully.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, we don't know any of this. None of it is confirmed as true. Many indications in the show suggest that having a pilot for Unit 01 was essential. Remember that SEELE's plan involved a lot of contingencies, and that Yui's and Gendo's plans likely did as well. One part of SEELE's plan involved using the Lance and Lilith, while another involved using the MPEs and Unit 01. It's entirely possible that a pilot was needed in the latter case (if for no other reason than because the soul in Unit 01 might not have cooperated otherwise).
Again, you're making an awful lot of assumptions here without backing them up. You need to slow down and present your arguments more carefully.


You may presume anything, but you obligatory get extra entities. Only the fact that creation of a "messiah" from 01 wasn't planned at all allows to perform complementation without a pilot. Gendo simply needed two "messiah" simultaneously (to use one as an ark) for his plan and use of a pilot wasn't planned again. Do you want to deceive me? You're making too many assumptions.



View Original PostBagheera wrote:Which one? Killing the pilots? We don't even know that order came from SEELE. It's possible SEELE just set the JSSDF loose and the order to kill the pilots was generated internally. Again, SEELE's plan involved lots of moving parts. If the pilot's there, fine. If not, also fine. They didn't care one way or the other (though they probably would have had they known more about Rei and her relationship with Shinji).


You should explain difference in value of Lilith and Adam and why it was presented with such a manner (i.e. provide simpler explanation than a lie).
Last edited by gchristnsn on Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:42 pm

The truth is, that the story was plotted only in broad brush from the outset, and the detail was made up as production went along. There are enough blatant continuity errors in detail (the vanishing cigarette, the transparent hill, the plug-suit out of nowhere) to tell us that other continuity glitches and contradictions are likely to exist.

Trying to fit to such inconsistent data is at best an intellectual game, at worst, is a way to lose sight of the wood for the trees.

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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:04 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:The truth is, that the story was plotted only in broad brush from the outset, and the detail was made up as production went along. There are enough blatant continuity errors in detail (the vanishing cigarette, the transparent hill, the plug-suit out of nowhere) to tell us that other continuity glitches and contradictions are likely to exist.

Trying to fit to such inconsistent data is at best an intellectual game, at worst, is a way to lose sight of the wood for the trees.


Only if you have no overall picture. If you can comprehend the fact that Lilith was actually a target for angels, but not Adam, you can solve it relatively easily (this is the hardest riddle, but it's also important to consider how much information is available to the one or another character or side). You will get an enlightenment when all the pieces will take their places, you may not believe this, but you may try, this worth it.

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:The Ultimate Truth of Evangelion is simply put -- "Don't be a filthy otaku -- go out and enjoy the company of normal people."


No objections.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:08 pm

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:Only if you have no overall picture. If you can comprehend the fact that Lilith was actually a target for angels, but not Adam, you can solve it relatively easily (this is the hardest riddle, but it's also important to consider how much information is available to the one or another character or side).


You haven't made a compelling case indicating that this is so, though, and the CI and the Angels themselves indicate just the opposite. Claiming we don't get it and reiterating your assertions does nothing to support your point.

And frankly, we do have the overall picture -- that's why we keep claiming there's insufficient information to answer the big questions. You keep talking about facts, but the problem is that you're ignoring those that don't suit you. When you take all the facts into account (and recognize the dangers of presuming your assumptions hold) things become a lot murkier than you seem to be indicating here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby gchristnsn » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:06 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You haven't made a compelling case indicating that this is so, though, and the CI and the Angels themselves indicate just the opposite. Claiming we don't get it and reiterating your assertions does nothing to support your point.

And frankly, we do have the overall picture -- that's why we keep claiming there's insufficient information to answer the big questions. You keep talking about facts, but the problem is that you're ignoring those that don't suit you. When you take all the facts into account (and recognize the dangers of presuming your assumptions hold) things become a lot murkier than you seem to be indicating here.


I resolved all your explanations with the theory about three-layer conspiracy, this shows that this is the simplest possible credible theory for the underlying plot (pay attention to Seele's words in the ep. 2). No one was able to show me any facts that raise contradiction in it, but you still have contradictions and in addition I had shown you facts which you don't see or don't want to see to deceive the opponent. So, try to understand what you're saying.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:38 pm

gchristnsn wrote:No one was able to show me any facts that raise contradiction in it

I suspect many of those "no one"s haven't been drawn into your arguments in the first place. For my part, your outstanding premise is an instant turn-off. Simply claiming that you have or are even looking for "the Ultimate Truth" of something, let alone NGE, suggests extreme pretentiousness. It has little utility beyond equally pretentious philosophical debate and well-deserved mockery ("42", anyone?). Beyond that, the premise automatically renders your thread a spectacle (it's the kind of claim one would expect to see on the cover of a magazine desperate for sales), and, quite evident in the comments you've gotten, it predisposes people into expecting a metaphysical discussion, when you are only discussing the plot.

As such, I would recommend dropping the whole "ultimate truth" business and making your agenda fully transparent. Instead of dropping an essay-sized bomb on people, you could also perhaps focus on the more contentious sub-issues.

Also: I haven't followed all of the back-and-forth here, but "you're (not) doing this in order to deceive the opponent" is a rather underhanded thing to say. Questioning your opponent's sincerity like this is, AFAIK, argumentum ad hominem. In other words, it's not something you ought to be doing. (Not in a debate, and not on this forum.)
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Postby SenorSquiid » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:49 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:
Fuyutsuki only became a cynic after Yui's contact experiment; he was even more devastated by her loss than Gendo was, and this is the common ground he finally found with Gendo (and which Gendo exploited).

The key point about Fuyutsuki is that he is not an actor in the grand scheme, but merely an enabler. He is a follower who dedicates himself to one agenda or another, but never develops his own ambitions.
First, his loyalties lies with Yui, and possibly her plan for Third Impact. He is willing to devote himself to her completely.
Then, after Yui disappears, Gendo either adopts Yui's plan or subverts SEELE's plan in order to be with Yui again, and he acquires Fuyutsuki's loyalty in realizing it, because it is also Fuyutsuki's greatest wish to be reunited with Yui again.

Yui has been Fuyutsuki's undoing from the very beginning. Before they met, he was a nobody. After they met, she gave him purpose. After she met Gendo, Fuyutsuki became less important (also in his own mind). And after Yui disappeared, Fuyutsuki's world lost all meaning. Except for the tiny sliver of hope of seeing Yui again that Gendo (of all people) could offer him.

Throughout the NGE series (and EoE), Fuyutsuki is a broken man, someone who clings to the last piece of hope that he has, but without really believing in it anymore (unlike Gendo). Fuyutsuki by himself is powerless, neutered. He has no strength of his own, but can only increase the strength of others.
(Which is why SEELE never killed him, even though they had been suspicious of him since before Yui's disappearance.)



Man, poor Fuyutski gets misinterpreted. Yui's plan wasn't just hers, and Gendo at the very least would have been in on it before her death. In that case, even at that point, Fuyutski probably was as well.

Gendo trusted Fuyutski implicitly against SEELE, and probably did before Yui was gone. He knew Fuyutski was in love with Yui, he had to have because they were probably the only people close to each other. With Yui gone, those two men, with that common bond went ahead and continued it.

Fuyutski wasn't shown taking much action, and wasn't the alpha that Gendo was, but wasn't just a broken powerless man. He was Gendo's right hand man, and to get as far as they did had to be incredibly capable. He also acted as whatever conscience Gendo had left.

Also, I think it's wrong to say that Fuyutski was more devestated by losing Yui than Gendo was. Fuyutski worked through it a lot more healthier than the guy to who the loss was so bad he created an army of godclones of his dead wife to pilot his dead wife's nightmare science monsters to bring about his dead wife's creepy apocalyptic wishes just so he could get back with her.

Also Fuyutski didn't get blueballed by his DeathReiYuiGhost like Gendo did.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:10 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:The truth is, that the story was plotted only in broad brush from the outset, and the detail was made up as production went along. There are enough blatant continuity errors in detail (the vanishing cigarette, the transparent hill, the plug-suit out of nowhere) to tell us that other continuity glitches and contradictions are likely to exist.

Trying to fit to such inconsistent data is at best an intellectual game, at worst, is a way to lose sight of the wood for the trees.


This. Too often, we assume everything in Eva is a grand puzzle to be worked out. Sometimes they screw up.

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:I couldn't disagree more. If you want people to focus on the themes, you need to provide the answers to the mysteries they keep getting distracted by if that's not what they're supposed to be focusing on, because otherwise they'll obsess over them and completely miss the forest for the trees. It's a running joke that if what Anno really wanted was for otakus to look outside themselves and go out into the world, he completely failed, and the biggest reason worth citing is because he (and whoever else) left us so many mysteries to obsess over.


To me, NGE's final two episodes represent a pretty dramatic statement that characters, not mysteries, are what matters. Eva isn't Lost, constantly driving the narrative forward on intrigue. The end of the show marks a split in the creators' priorities: during Eva, they didn't particularly care about mysteries. Post-Eva, it became a concern... to their detriment, IMO. They started scratching the itch, filling "holes", connecting dots. The nadir is represented by the Kaworu monolith scene, a weird info dump having nothing to do with character. "Hey Kaworu, could you just stand there while the creators list off things that may not concern you? We gotta cram this stuff in somehow, thanks!" Ugh.

That "running joke" you talk about comes from the tension post TV-26 and before it, the creators imposing different values on their former selves. We obsess over this stuff because they gave us permission. Releasing phrases like "First Ancestral Race" post-Eva gives the impression that it's important even if, y'know, the show itself doesn't think so. Initially, they were wise enough to omit extraneous details. But now, they've decided it might be "The Ultimate Truth of Evangelion" after all.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:51 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:This. Too often, we assume everything in Eva is a grand puzzle to be worked out.
Once you've found that you've been trying to analyse the significance of what turned out to be the glue joining strips of cels together, you know that it's time to step back from that abyss.

The nadir is represented by the Kaworu monolith scene, a weird info dump having nothing to do with character.
Weird, and, as many threads testify, also not quite consistent with other material.

Where do you place EoE in the scheme of things? Misato's info-dump to Shinji dropped enough nuance to take the generic GeoFront-building Forerunners of episode 21 to something ancestral to life here.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:46 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Once you've found that you've been trying to analyse the significance of what turned out to be the glue joining strips of cels together, you know that it's time to step back from that abyss.


:lol:

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Where do you place EoE in the scheme of things? Misato's info-dump to Shinji dropped enough nuance to take the generic GeoFront-building Forerunners of episode 21 to something ancestral to life here.


That info dump I'm not too hard on because it's incredibly brief. Perhaps there was a more artful way for them to tell us, but it's fairly painless.

If you're asking what I think of EoE's worth as a project... well, I respect those who think the TV episodes are enough, but I couldn't disagree more. EoE is the reason I'm still thinking about Eva today. To me, EoE is worthy because it keeps focus on what's important: the characters and their struggles. It's not about filling in gaps just for the sake of it. The cosmic adventures of Lilith or Yuinit-01 are explored only as it relates to Shinji. In contrast, the Kaworu DC is unworthy because it brushes aside character for trivia.

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Postby gchristnsn » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:56 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Once you've found that you've been trying to analyse the significance of what turned out to be the glue joining strips of cels together, you know that it's time to step back from that abyss.


As I already explained in the thread in editorium, this is the essence of the analysis of NGE, because it's a story with a fragmented timeline and intentionally removed connections and exactly this makes it a puzzle (and you need to solve it to get correct motivations).
If you had realized this, you already solved a half. You can not state that it's insolvable, because you have absolutely no reasons to do this, and this indicates that you can't reason correctly, if you do.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:47 am

View Original PostSenorSquiid wrote:Man, poor Fuyutski gets misinterpreted. Yui's plan wasn't just hers, and Gendo at the very least would have been in on it before her death. In that case, even at that point, Fuyutski probably was as well.

Gendo trusted Fuyutski implicitly against SEELE, and probably did before Yui was gone. He knew Fuyutski was in love with Yui, he had to have because they were probably the only people close to each other. With Yui gone, those two men, with that common bond went ahead and continued it.

Fuyutski wasn't shown taking much action, and wasn't the alpha that Gendo was, but wasn't just a broken powerless man. He was Gendo's right hand man, and to get as far as they did had to be incredibly capable. He also acted as whatever conscience Gendo had left.

Also, I think it's wrong to say that Fuyutski was more devestated by losing Yui than Gendo was. Fuyutski worked through it a lot more healthier than the guy to who the loss was so bad he created an army of godclones of his dead wife to pilot his dead wife's nightmare science monsters to bring about his dead wife's creepy apocalyptic wishes just so he could get back with her.

Also Fuyutski didn't get blueballed by his DeathReiYuiGhost like Gendo did.

Yes, Fuyutsuki is more stable and less obsessed than Gendo. I never denied that. In my opinion, the entire premise of Fuyutsuki is that he is not a player, but merely an enabler for Gendo and Yui. This means that he may provide inputs on their (respective) plans, and that he may play a part in executing those plans. It does not mean that he has an agenda of his own.

The tragedy of Fuyutsuki is that, even if Gendo's plans come to full fruition, Fuyutsuki will not get what he wants, and he knows it. What he wants is Yui's love, and it was denied to him a long time ago, when she married Gendo. He has simply accepted that he will never have true happiness.
(Fuyutsuki is not the jealous type who would mistreat Gendo and Shinji out of spite. If you want that, go read Harry Potter. Instead, Fuyutsuki is the spineless type, who withdraws without a fight and merely wishes Yui (and Gendo) well, accepting his own loneliness.)
Therefore, Fuyutsuki's agenda is a rather bleak and colourless one, because he is only in it for Yui's sake, not his own. During EoE, he is even at peace with not being there for the end, as he tells Gendo to "give my regards to Yui".

This is why Fuyutsuki is a broken man without Gendo, because Gendo is his last connection to Yui.

None of these considerations detract from his professionalism and his ability as a commander. Because he has no personal stake in Gendo's plans (apart from satisfaction at its realization), he can be quite effective in pursuing it, and even be (as you put it) what is left of Gendo's conscience. Because unlike Gendo, Fuyutsuki does not seduce any Akagi women to acquire their brilliant minds, Fuyutsuki does not create a pool filled with Yui clones made from Lilith tissue. Fuyutsuki does not obsess.

He only hopes.

And he knows full well that Gendo is using him through this hope.

---
View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:If you had realized this, you already solved a half. You can not state that it's insolvable, because you have absolutely no reasons to do this, and this indicates that you can't reason correctly, if you do.

The fact is simply that most of the people here are not willing to accept your assumptions, including (especially) the assumption that your assumptions are facts/truths.
Insulting the intelligence of the people you're trying to convince tends not to convince them at all. Instead, it is turning your own position into dogma, not truth, which weakens your ability to convince.
What you could be doing instead is provide new arguments why your assumptions are valid. Simply stating that they are facts because they are facts does not work, because you assume what you are trying to prove. That is called circular reasoning, and it does not work to prove a point unless people are fooled by it.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:08 am

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:(snip), and this indicates that you can't reason correctly, if you do.

I would really recommend becoming familiar with logical fallacies, since they weigh you down like a five-ton ball and chain.

----

Jorno: Your presented take on Fuyutsuki isn't uncommon, but I've never completely agreed with it. I'll second what Senor Squiid said, and add this interpretation:

Yes, there is the whole "unrequited love for a younger women who is now a giant green-eyed monster" angle, but it's a mistake to think that Fuyutsuki is motivated solely by this (same as boiling Gendo down completely to "be with Yui again, the rest be damned"). Fuyutsuki does have his own underlying agenda, and we see this in full when he threatens to go public with the truth about Seele and Second Impact. He's not a social person, but he loves humanity and he thinks Seele's atrocities shouldn't go unpunished, as it were. Of course, the way he proceeds with his plan is utterly misguided and naive. Gendo shows Fuyutsuki how totally in over his head he is and is able to fortify Fuyutsuki from Seele's wrath by giving him a place on the inside. Fuyutsuki finds this option preferable to being shot and left in a gutter: to his relief, his dear Yui-kun hasn't been corrupted by Seele after all, and her own aspirations give Fuyu the hope that he can still make a difference.

Also, to nitpick, there's every indication that Gendo did not seduce the Akagi women, but that they went after him of their own accord, and he humored their advances in order to keep their other services secured.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:15 am

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:If you had realized this, you already solved a half. You can not state that it's insolvable, because you have absolutely no reasons to do this, and this indicates that you can't reason correctly, if you do.


Someone who can barely articulate his reasoning has no business talking about being able to reason correctly. Learn the difference between "fact" and "interpretation", as well as the meannigs of little things like begging the question, ad hominem attacks, and the like and get back to us.

Warren: Your reasons for liking EoE strike me as bizarre, since it's exactly the opposite of what you describe it to be. EoTV was about the characters and their struggles. EoE was wall to wall plot, leavened heavily with bits of character derailment for spice. It's still a hell of a movie, mind, but more as a spectacle than as a character piece.

Reichu: That's a good point regarding Gendo and the Akagis. It's easy to forget that they were perfectly capable of fucking up their own lives with no help from him.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:54 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's still a hell of a movie, mind, but more as a spectacle than as a character piece.

This, coming from someone who insists that Asuka's character arc would not be complete without the MP Eva battle?

EoE isn't as heavy-handed and obvious about its character development as EoTV is, but, well, it has that plot to interweave the character development through, and in that sense returns to normal NGE form. (Albeit with the perks of increased budget and run-time and less worrying about standards and practices.) It gives us a lot that EoTV did not. There are some things that are missing, yes, but as I've said in the past why repeat what EoTV already did perfectly well? Instead of repeating the info dumps and psychoanalysis sessions for the four main protagonists, EoE provides another angle to their character development, along with expanding upon and giving a send-off to several others who were either mouth pieces in the TV ending (Gendo, Ritsuko, Fuyutsuki, Yui, the bridge bunnies) or didn't appear at all (Kaworu, Kiel).

EoE is a character piece with spectacle, I would say. It substitutes a lot of the "talking heads syndrome" for visual storytelling, as well, so I'm not sure how much of that "spectacle" is empty, which is what seems to be implied with the word.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:40 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:This, coming from someone who insists that Asuka's character arc would not be complete without the MP Eva battle?


Hey, there are essential character bits in DBZ, too, but I'd never call it a character study. But with that aside remember the context in which I make the above claim: I'm assuming OMF is the beginning of the story, not the end, and that that battle is necessary for Asuka to move forward and actually develop. IOW EoE gave us the setup, not the payoff (which is one reason so many people find it so frustrating). That claim is also made with the assumption that concurrency is in effect, meaning we can turn to EoTV for all the necessary character bits EoE omitted. If one does not make that assumption, and jumps straight from 24' to EoE, the argument becomes a lot less compelling because there's nothing to work with character-wise after the kitchen scene (well there's OMF, but we don't even know what that means so whatever). Hence the deep dissatisfaction with EoE expressed by folks like Tines and NemZ: they can't/won't embrace concurrency, so what they're left with is a dismal mess.

EoE is a character piece with spectacle, I would say. It substitutes a lot of the "talking heads syndrome" for visual storytelling, as well, so I'm not sure how much of that "spectacle" is empty, which is what seems to be implied with the word.


And without the support of EoTV I simply can't agree. Between the ambiguity and the fact that it stops halfway through the story I can't see it as an argument for character development at all. The best it has to offer is "ha ha ha giant robots suck! Now you'll have to deal with being puny ol' humans."

Mind you, I can see how it might be spun to become good character development, particulalry when propped up by a decent sequel and EoTV. But as a standalone entity? Not so much.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:37 pm

Bagheera: I don't buy into "concurrency" -- or, if I do, I think "concurrency" is a very bad word for the idea. "Complementation" is much more fitting.* The initial "Genesis" release packaging of 25 + 25' and 26 + 26', Anno's stated satisfaction with EoTV, and repeated official acknowledgment of EoTV** seem to support this idea. EoTV couldn't provide a full wrap-up to the story, but Anno didn't attempt to make it redundant with EoE. He let the character beats within it remain crucial to a full understanding of the show, and chose to explore alternate territory with EoE.

I understand that a position can be taken where EoE is totally segregated from EoTV and not allowed to draw upon it at all, but judging it in that light seems to rely upon the assumption that EoE was intended as an all-out replacement for the TV ending. I don't see compelling evidence for this assertion.

BTW, I may be doing the broken record routine here, but the final scene is, AFAIK, nameless. "One More Final: I Need You" is actually the alternative title of "Dai 26 Wa: Magokoro o, kimi ni" [Episode 26': Yours Sincerely]. While placing the title card before the final scene was clearly a deliberate decision (one not made until after the storyboard phase, I should note), this was probably for reasons of thematic resonance. I'm aware the phrase "One More Final" sounds like it implies an epilogue, but it's actually a bit of Engrish referring to the fact that 26' is 'another final [episode]'. (Based on the translation we got, my best guess is that the original form was 今ひとつの最終話.)


* I mean, there's absolutely no way to reconcile the two endings perfectly. They don't unfold side-by-side in any meaningful sense and it's a fool's errand to force a dogma of "inerrancy" upon them.

When it finally came time to commit to an ending that wasn't entirely metaphysical, Anno clearly didn't hamper himself with some abstract notion of creative purity. He went through multiple drafts to reach his final destination. This means that some ideas grew and changed, and others emerged anew, from the time EoTV was made. But the story didn't stop being NGE as a result, and the original ending didn't stop being relevant, even though the discrepancies (whether real or perceived -- it's impossible to fully separate them) created irreconcilable dissonance for some viewers. (Some.)

** E.g.: It got released right off the bat while OA 21-24 were initially withheld; Evangelion Chronicle's HIP section combines details from both endings; the Impact scenarios in NGE2 similarly nod to both endings.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.


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