Questions and Thoughts on Impacts and Instrumentality

I've been reading some of the responses to my previous topic a while back, and I see that there is a lot of different opinions on certain matters. Now whether I can discern one answer as a fact over another or that only theories on these questions exist is another thing. I have recently watched the series over again, as well as End of Evangelion, and I wanted to refine some varying issues and possibly issues of others as well in a more specific thread. I’m really bad at keeping things short when it comes to things like this so I apologize for the length, and by all means I’m not forcing you to read it, haha. I just wanted to establish certain problems in a higher level of detail, along my thoughts on the matter. I’m not saying that what I wrote is 100% accurate, but this is what I have come to understand from my experiences with NGE. If any of you want resolve my certain issues, give me your take on everything, or just discuss this, that, and what not… be my guest. Thanks for any input.



It is my understanding that the White Moon containing Adam landed on earth first, followed by the Black Moon containing Lilith which hit the earth second, causing the First Impact and destroying Lilith's Lance of Longinus, in the process. Why Lilith's impact on earth created what they called as the First Impact and not Adam's impact on earth, I am not quite sure. I'm thinking it either has to do with Lilith's Spear of Longinus being destroyed or just the fact that Lilith came down second, when there is only supposed to be one dominant race on earth. This of course depends on the definition of an Impact. Is it just a significant event in the timeline, or does it entail an explosion, or the extinction of a race? I say this because the Second Impact was what I understand to be a near extinction of the human race (which luckily did not completely happen), and the Third Impact was what was trying to be avoided in that of NERV until the Human Instrumentality Project was dubbed in which we actually found out that we wanted to institute a Third Impact (from my understanding). But we, or I should say at least I, don't know what happened in the First Impact. Were there already Angels on earth that were destroyed because the Black Moon containing Lilith wiped them out, or was it simply just a collision with earth, resulting in little death or what not?

Then it is my understanding that the Lance of Longinus, has somewhat of a mind of its own, and can act on its own volition, or at least according to what the First Ancestral Race had planned… that being the prevention of the development of one of the two Seeds of Life in order to prevent them from combining the Fruits of Life and Knowledge, and creating an ultimate being like themselves. I originally thought the Lance would be wielded by the owner of the egg that it came in. For example: I thought that Adam would use his Spear to prevent the growth of Lilith, but this is most likely not the case, because we see the Lance take action on its own, and it’s the Angels whose population is postponed… not the Lilim. It seemed like the Lances are actually inhibitors which are meant to prevent the life of the race that it came with. This being Adam. So because Lilith’s Lance was destroyed, the Lance that came with Adam’s only choice was to prevent Adam from populating the earth with Angels. This is when the Lilim started to populate the earth.

The group later to be called Seele then found the Dead Sea Scrolls which prophesized all of the stuff that is to happen later on. Where they found the Dead Sea Scrolls, how they found them, and what exactly word for word is contained within them, I do not know, but we can make assumptions. The Katsuragi Expedition takes place in order to test and experiment with the Super Solenoid Theory I think, but then something goes wrong. I would like to know exactly why and how things go wrong as we don’t see the events transpire in great detail, we only hear it. Theoretically, from my reasoning at least, the Lance of Longinus should still be acting on its own will to prevent Adam from populating the world with Angels, so technically, upon the Expedition’s arrival; the Lance should still be inside of Adam. What they were doing with the Lance in relation to Adam I do not know. We hear that the experiment was involving the insertion of DNA into Adam, which somehow causes Second Impact, probably due to the combination of human DNA and Adam, and then we hear that the Lance is being pulled in by Adam. Why the Second Impact happened is still a little sketchy to me as well as the details around it. What was the expedition trying to do exactly, why was the Lance being pulled in by Adam, and how did it not result in the total annihilation of the human race (was it because of the Lance?), etc… Then somehow in the aftermath, the product of all of this was Adam’s embryo, which later gets sent to Gendo, and Adam’s soul which is used in Kaworu. This was the First Contact Experiment, but what is weird is that the Contact Experiment involving Yui, and Kyoto did not involve an explosion of any kind. The incident with Eva Unit 04 and the disappearance of NERV-2 might be related to this somehow, but I do not know.

So the Lance is now out of Adam and presumably floating or lying around somewhere in the Antarctic because there is no longer a solid Adam to be penetrated because it is split up into the soul and body. So now the Angels start populating the earth because there is no Lance to stop them. It takes around 14 years for them to start coming but they arrive nonetheless. From my understanding, the Angel’s goal is to unit with Adam, which Gendo possesses, and when they unite Adam, they can wipe out all of the Lilim and become the dominant race on earth. I also have heard that because the Angels are somewhat stupid, that they mistake Lilith’s presence in Terminal Dogma to be Adam, and that is the reason why the first couple of Angels attack Tokyo-3 first. But why do the Angels never go after Adam’s soul? And how will Adam being whole again wipe out the human race? If Adam becomes whole again, theoretically with what I proposed, the Lance of Longinus will take action once again, and penetrate Adam to prevent him from populating the earth any further. But maybe this is not the case because due to the fact that the Angels have populated the earth already along with the humans, so the Lance may not have any effect, but I’m not sure. What is really the case? I’m pretty sure the angels do not care about humanity or instrumentality, so they would just be trying to wipe out the Lilim. Then comes the question of, if Adam wants to be the dominate life form on earth, shouldn’t Lilith want the same thing? Maybe Lilith can’t because she is crucified in Terminal Dogma, and like Adam, does not have a soul either, but still. And then the question of how Lilith’s soul is separated from Lilith is brought about. I’m guessing it didn’t cause another Impact because it was her children (the Lilim) which did it to her, and not Adam’s race, but still, the questions are there.

Then, presumably, the Lance is needed to prevent the growth of Lilith, because she is growing too powerful. Why Adam’s Lance does this, and why it is needed exactly for Lilith, I am not quite sure. I assume that the Lance is needed to delay Lilith from regaining her strength so that the plans for instrumentality can take place later down the road, but I am not comfortable with that simple of an answer. Seele’s original plan for instrumentality most likely had to involve the Lance of Longinus, Lilith, Adam’s body/embryo, and I think Adam’s and Lilith’s souls as well, who are now in Kaworu and Rei respectively. I believe that the Eva’s were required by Seele to kill the Angels so that instrumentality could be carried out by the humans, and not the Angels. After all its called the Human Instrumentality Project, not the Angel Instrumentality Project, so the Angels would have to be killed off first, making the Lilim the primary life form on earth. I believe that is my reason for why Seele and NERV have to kill off all of the Angels first, in order for instrumentality to take place. I do feel as if there could be a better answer however. Things change when Eva Unit 01 acquires the S^2 Engine, and when the Lance of Longinus is lost. I think that Seele only needed the Eva’s to kill off the Angels, but when they saw that Eva Unit 01 was becoming like a god (or devil as mentioned in the End of Evangelion by one of Seele’s soldiers… And this I relate to Karex_Usyrion’s point that Eva Unit 01 was possibly a reference to that of Samael. Hence the 12 wings, and yadda-yadda… Its still a little confusing, I’ll have to do a bit more reading, haha) and that the Lance was lost, they had to modify their plans… Hence, the Mass Production Evas. I’m wondering what Seele’s exact plans for their original instrumentality project was, but I think it probably doesn’t have much to do with the Evas in the end processes. The MPEs capture Eva Unit 01 and mark it with the Stigmata I believe, which could possibly be due to the ritualistic tree of life thing that happened with the 9 MPE + 1 Eva Unit 01 to represent the 10 Sephira, and as a result, Rei was called back into Lilith (who I think acquired Adam’s soul after Kaworu died somehow (This is another thing that I am unsure of. Maybe only the fusing of Adam’s and Lilith’s body need to take place, and thus, only one soul is needed… which would be that of Rei’s. This could explain why it was Giant Naked Rei, and not Giant Naked Kaworu… though Kaworu did appear for a moment which leads me to discount this theory in some aspects), and Adam’s body which she took from Gendo’s hand), and proceeded to initiate instrumentality with Eva Unit 01, as the MPE’s stood back and watched as they were no longer needed to hold Eva Unit 01 captive. The Lance then is summoned for some reason I cannot explain, due to the fact that it is Adam’s Lance and should theoretically only be able to prevent Adam from populating the Earth, but it comes back nonetheless. This leads me to believe that the Lance has another feature related to that of instrumentality, because it’s only other features that I know of are its ability to penetrate AT Fields and the ability to prevent a certain race from populating (none of these abilities would be of any use in this step of the instrumentality process). I also believe the Lance is of major importance, because in EoE, the Lance is called back and forms a upside down tree of life after it absorbs Eva Unit 01. I believe this is what happened. Why it did this, I do not know. Then we see Shinji rejects instrumentality and snaps the Lance in half, which ends the instrumentality process which also leads me to believe that the Lance was more important than I have previously known. And the fact that the Lance comes back in the first place, makes me think that the Lance of Longinus was needed the whole entire time in order for instrumentality to take place. I am not really sure what to think. … Then, Shinji in Eva Unit 01, who is crucified on a cross, is then inserted into the super giant naked Rei’s third eye onto her forehead. I’m also wondering the meaning of this.

Haha, sorry for the length, but there you go. Anyways, take care you guys. : )

Fuck. I'd sworn off discussions for awhile, but this is interesting so we'll see if I can take a stab at it without getting into any arguments:

AuraTwilight wrote:

SEELE was trying to basically set the stage for their master plan, though the Katsuragi expedition didn't necessarily know that. They were just doing what they were told, trying to figure out how this big alien thingie works. I speculate that the Lance was sinking into Adam to prevent its awakening, but was unable to do so.

That is my reading of the situation as well.

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Adam couldn't destroy the entire human race because he ended up exploding from his instability, probably caused by the human DNA injected into him, or something.

Symbv's translation of the dialogue surrounding Adam's final moments suggests that the KE interrupted Adam's anti-ATF long enough to funnel its energy into his S2 organ, which then proceeded to go kablooey on account of its connection with the "explosive device" referenced by the KE. How the two got connected remains a mystery; the KE seemed surprised when it happened, the Lance was out of the picture by that time (according to the timestamp on the playback, anyway), and Adam presumably didn't want it to happen.

But anyway, the AATF interruption seems to be what did the trick. The human DNA just woke Adam up, interfered with the Lance's efforts to subdue it, and (possibly) made the Impact event possible (on account of Adam and Lilith material intermixing).

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Either they can't detect it, or it's not relevant to their purposes.

It might be worth noting that the embryo was sealed away prior to ep. 8 (when Kaji stole it), and was in NERV HQ thereafter same as Lilith. An Angel did go after it the only time it was out and about (in Ep 8). The only one to display truly confusing behavior in this regard was Kaworu, but since he's made of lies anyway his reasoning could amount to virtually anything.

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The Lance doesn't seem THAT pro-active. It's already taken it's measures, so it's generally going to wait stuff out.

Also, if one of the Angels "wins" it would amount to a merger with Lilith, which would still result in one SoL entity running the show. The Lance doesn't seem to care what happens so long as there's only one SoL doing its thing.

(of course, there's also the question of whether or not Angel/SoL contact would really do anything; Kaworu's reaction in 24 and the Angel endings in NGE2 suggest nothing would happen without Rei's intervention, which might mean the whole "Angel+Lilith = End of World!!!" line is one big fakeout.)

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Indeed. Unit 01 was still connected to Lilith during the testing, so when Yui disappeared into it, and Gendo and company tried to retrieve her, they instead seemed to have accidentally extracted a clone with Lilith's soul: Rei Ayanami.

It's possible the salvage process was a success, but thanks to Yui's recalcitrance they got half of Lilith's soul because something had to come out. IOW maybe NERV did everything right and the only reason it didn't work was because Yui was being cagey/a bitch.

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SEELE's been builting their Mass Production Evas since as early as the Bardiel Event, so it's possible that they were always part of the plan.

I have come to believe that the MPEs were the lynchpin of SEELE's plan, with the other elements being modular elements that they could use to achieve similar goals through different means. Just the MPEs? Fine, dump everyone into the Black Moon and call it a day. Unit 01? Goodie, use it as an ark (just be sure the pilot's dead or, if he's still around, break his soul so he won't do anything). Lance? Good, now we can make sure Lilith doesn't interfere. Lilith? Well, back to mom if we can make her play ball . . . but if she gets any ideas we're kinda fucked, so we better keep the Lance around.

That sort of thing.

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The Lance wasn't snapped, it just took a different shape. It does that to enable different functions, apparently.

Assuming it has any beyond "kill stuff" and "bind/stop/immobilize you fuckers". Maybe it took on a new form because Yui had elements of two SoL lineages, and it needed to adapt to keep her from getting uppity? Who knows.

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The Lance has nothing to do with ENDING Instrumentality. Rei ended it completely of her own will exactly as when she began it. Really, all that was necessary was for Adam and Lilith to merge into a God-like entity, and everything else was some convoluted stuff to get the entity to do what SEELE wanted. It's extraneous and possibly unnecessary, and mostly exists for their Religious Boner even when it IS functional.

The Lance is their Religious Boner, as it's what they use to penetrate Lilith and make her do what they want.

Many of the issues surrounding the discussion and the decyphering of NGE / EoE (or their reverse engineering depending on your views, see below) have different guidance as a result of the divergence between an approach that sides with analysis based on a self-referential, inherent, contained framework that asserts meaning only within the body of work and strict judgement via Shin-seiki's Tiers of Canonicity, or a Baudrillardian approach that identifies the NGE/EoE body of work and others as a simulacrum, a proposed extraposition from reality (SciFi, cultural and otherwise) presented in 1995 for a future timeline nexus culminating in 2015-2016. Supporters of the first approach find the second approach, its means, tools, its derivatives and its expressions "controversial", "speculative" and apparent conflict thus ensues obfuscating narrative value.

I will post these two following entries and will observe before addressing the Lance and some of the other questions. I disagree the Lance is not that pro-active, not with that wording but there is a line of argument presenting the Lance as a living intelligence.

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Why Lilith's impact on earth created what they called as the First Impact and not Adam's impact on earth, I am not quite sure

The impact of the White Moon Object GeoFront-01 is set approx 4.5 billion years ago. This timing is likely meant so as to correlate it to the remains of Theia in the giant impact hypothesis. It is not referred to as First Impact because in the context of that hypothesis there were no planetary civilizations affected in the event. The Theia impact hypothesis calculates a Mars sized body and is thus the more energetic impact (contrary to another posting previously).
The subsequent impact of the Black Moon is referred to as First Impact because it definitely impacted planetary civilizations including Lemuria.

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Where they found the Dead Sea Scrolls, how they found them, and what exactly word for word is contained within them

Well, in addition to words, there are symbols in them and communication through them which are not in words.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of ancient texts elaborated on materials dated between 150BCE - 70BCE

Although this was not going to be my prefered thread to expose this, I will go ahead and establish that there are grounds for disagreement with
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
which establishes that "the mystery surrounding their contents has disappeared". This boldly dismissive statement
links to http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/ as if that reference addresses or resolves issues permanently and definitively. This statement and including the hyper link to the reference should be changed or removed.

wiki.evageeks.org , the reference linked to, or others for that matter fall short to:

- Address the authorship to be inclusive of the theories with the association to the Jerusalites and the Zadokites
- Address the matters of the theft from the Rockefeller Museum and the unaccounted tracking of missing contents
- Address the meaning of the symbology in the scrolls and in and with associated artifacts at the sites
- Address grievances with the interpretation and translation of contents in the scrolls which have been made public

The Dead Sea Scrolls are source original information on Angels (including Sachiel, Ramiel), Samael, Adam and Lilith.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are source original material for Qabalah (right and left hand paths), Hermetic knowledge and additional occult practices.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the key artifact that empowers SEELE.

To add on to Karex's information, however, the "Secret Dead Sea Scrolls" of Evangelion are distinct from the public Dead Sea Scrolls that exist in real life. They're not the same thing.