Evangelion 3.0 Speculation [1]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:38 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:The reason I felt the urge to correct you on the happiness thing is because I see that brought up as a point within the film itself - Mari's oddly chilling "If you don't lighten up, you're not going to have any fun." I've mentioned it before elsewhere, but it's a really fucked-up thing for her to say, especially given the things Shinji proceeds to do.

Would be great to see how that dialogue is versed in its original Japanese, as that would shed light on Mari's character and how she may fare in the coming movies.

I think it is important not to stress too much on the "personal happiness" of Shinji in Eva because it can be misleading. Any "personal happiness" of Shinji in Eva has to be viewed in the context of Shinji's self-respect, confidence, and ability to deal with people and environment around him in a meaningful way, as well as coping with inner demons from the past. Not for "fun", which is for sure.

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:One wonders if somewhere along the line, Shinji forgot that fun, personal pleasure, isn't the point. It's not enough to pilot Eva for yourself and your own reasons, because one's own reasons can be far more destructive to oneself than any overbearing father could.

Actually I think it is clear in 2.0 that Shinji does not pilot Eva for personal pleasure. He went back only to save Rei, so he pilots Eva for someone else, not for himself. And he is willing to die trying, so it is hard to argue that he was piloting Eva for personal pleasure, like what Mari seemed to be doing.
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Postby Brainman » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:56 am

Of course he has not managed that yet, since we still have two movies which need to be about something, after all.


Yes, this is how I feel. We're still at the half way point in the narrative, of course Shinji hasn't figured it all out yet. Reading through the CRC interviews it seems like the ending was changed (from Rei exploding to Rei being saved) to make it a lighter, more hopeful end for the second movie. This might indicate that they knew they wanted to take it in darker directions in the third one. So, I read that as Anno and co. giving Shinji a personal victory before dropping him into the abyss. But to say that his actions are purely positive because they advanced his state of well being at the expense of, uh, everyone I feel is out of touch. I anticipate 3.0 having much to do with him living with the results of his actions (one theory I have is revealing that his classmates were killed in the action).
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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:58 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote: But to say that his actions are purely positive because they advanced his state of well being at the expense of, uh, everyone I feel is out of touch.

I don't think I argued it is purely positive, but it is quite positive because it is, as you said, a personal victory and in this anime personal victory of Shinji counts a lot. Otherwise I agree with what you said in the post above. The decision to change Rei's ending and Asuka's ending definitely made 2.0 lighter and more hopeful, to the extent that it does not look as dark as what it could have been.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:35 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Everything boils down to how events affect his view of himself and how he relates to other people he cares, and only by extension, the wider world.

+1 :thumbsup:
Since I returned here I always had the impression that some people end up focusing excessively on the external events during that sequence; in general I always noticed that there's not enough focus on the fact that in the end everything revolves around Shinji and his own perception of the events.
View Original Postsymbv wrote:Would be great to see how that dialogue is versed in its original Japanese, as that would shed light on Mari's character and how she may fare in the coming movies.

Don't you remember it from the movie? Anyway, it should be:
View Original PostMari wrote:だけど、まあ…そうやっていじけていたってなんにも楽しいことないよ。

Also, original script screenshot:
[URL=http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5240/144fb.png]Image[/URL]
in case you would like to check the phrase against it (I've ocr-ed the text but it seems that the phrase is written exactly like this in several Japanese sites).
symbv wrote:I think it is important not to stress too much on the "personal happiness" of Shinji in Eva because it can be misleading. Any "personal happiness" of Shinji in Eva has to be viewed in the context of Shinji's self-respect, confidence, and ability to deal with people and environment around him in a meaningful way, as well as coping with inner demons from the past. Not for "fun", which is for sure.

All this talking about happiness makes me wonder if Kaworu's version of happiness is simply going to be yet another version of Shinji's closed world of not.
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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:57 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:+1 :thumbsup:
Since I returned here I always had the impression that some people end up focusing excessively on the external events during that sequence; in general I always noticed that there's not enough focus on the fact that in the end everything revolves around Shinji and his own perception of the events.

Thanks, I believe the key to understanding Shinji (and Evangelion) is to really focus on Shinji and how he personally feels, instead of what we want him to be or what we think he should feel. This is where all the haters of Shinji get wrong (and there are quite a lot around especially in the west it seems).


View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Don't you remember it from the movie? Anyway, it should be:
だけど、まあ…そうやっていじけていたってなんにも楽しいことないよ

I don't remember the exact wording, really. Part of it has to do with the fact that I watched the movie only once, but also has to do with the perference of me preferring to be cautious when it comes to interpreting the fine meaning of certain dialogues.

The translation in the English subtitle seems to be "If you don't lighten up, you're not going to have any fun." according to Azathoth's post.

いじけていた is "cowering" "cringing" or "groveling".
A literal translation of Mari's words would be "But, well... if you act just like that cowering there, there is nothing to be happy about either".

I believe it is a bit different from the English subtitle in nuance. It is not about having fun by lightening up, but just Mari pointing to Shinji that just sitting there being timid is not going to make him happy at all.

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:All this talking about happiness makes me wonder if Kaworu's version of happiness is simply going to be yet another version of Shinji's closed world of not.

Happiness as understood by Kaworu, who is otherwordly and does not need air mask in space, may be quite different from what happiness as understood by most people.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:58 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Thanks, I believe the key to understanding Shinji (and Evangelion) is to really focus on Shinji and how he personally feels, instead of what we want him to be or what we think he should feel.

Indeed, I'm quite confused by the opposite reactions of some fans, though I already said in the past that Shinji's actions and feelings are usually quite understandable to me.
View Original Postsymbv wrote:The translation in the English subtitle seems to be "If you don't lighten up, you're not going to have any fun." according to Azathoth's post.

I think that Azathoth wrote what he remembered, maybe some American fan should post a direct transcription.
View Original Postsymbv wrote:A literal translation of Mari's words would be "But, well... if you act just like that cowering there, there is nothing to be happy about either".

Thanks, the Italian translation was quite loose, as usual, it says something like "if you act like a scorbutic then there's no fun".
View Original Postsymbv wrote:Happiness as understood by Kaworu, who is otherwordly and does not need air mask in space, may be quite different from what happiness as understood by most people.

I really don't know, I think that it could largely depend on "you know what".
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:16 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:The reason I felt the urge to correct you on the happiness thing is because I see that brought up as a point within the film itself - Mari's oddly chilling "If you don't lighten up, you're not going to have any fun." I've mentioned it before elsewhere, but it's a really fucked-up thing for her to say, especially given the things Shinji proceeds to do. One wonders if somewhere along the line, Shinji forgot that fun, personal pleasure, isn't the point. It's not enough to pilot Eva for yourself and your own reasons, because one's own reasons can be far more destructive to oneself than any overbearing father could. Piloting Eva for yourself - that way lies the madness of Asuka Langley Soryu. Indeed that way lies Third Impact. So I think it's important that the viewer take the matter with a little more skepticism than the characters do, here. At this rate, Shinji would be lucky to survive the series with two eyes and four limbs.


Mari is presented as possessing several character traits that all commit to the same theme. Let me line these traits up first:
- Thrill-seeking (Pilots Evangelions because she likes the rush)
- Independent and strong-willed ("Using adults for the purposes of the children")
- Goes by smell ("You smell like LCL, Nerv puppy.")
- Willingly goes berserk ("Za Beasto!")

These and the desire for fun all allude to one theme: instinct and short-term desire, in a Freudian sense. In other words, Mari is a personification of the Id to Shinji's Ego. As such, she is a tireless source of immature, uncontrollable behaviour. Especially the Beast Mode scene illustrates that she lives in the moment and willingly immerses herself in her immediate desires (in this case: the fun of piloting an Evangelion and defeating the 10th Angel) to the point that she willingly and casually sacrifices her sense of self in the process. As a result, I would expect her to be unpredictable, impulsive and violent. Not a protagonist.

Shinji, by contrast, is the Ego, who is insecure about every decision he must make and has great difficulty committing to anything. As the Id, Mari will likely take on a temptress role towards Shinji in the sequels, perhaps even sexually but not necessarily so.

If you have an Id and and Ego, there should also be a Super-Ego. Rebuild does not offer a unified personification of this; rather, this role is fragmented over various peers and adults in Shinji's life. In Rebuild 1.0, it's mostly Misato (discipline) and Toji (guilt), while in 2.0 the emphasis shifts towards Kaji (duty/responsibility) and Gendo (perseverance). Also, Shinij's growing connection towards both Rei and Asuka is starting to develop into his own Super-Ego.

The scenes preceding the climax of Rebuild 2.0 show that it is Mari (the Id) who urges Shinji to go have fun in his Evangelion, but it is his sense of duty (demonstrated by his seeing Kaji's burnt watermelons) and perseverance (demonstrated by his shouting down Gendo's derision) that actually motivate him. In other words, Shinji follows the Super-Ego rather than the Id, leaving Mari's comment that "that guy gets all the fun" upon Near-Third Impact as a stark reminder that he did not follow her advice.
(For those of you who state that Shini's blissful reunion with Rei shows him having fun, this is not hedonistic fun, but rather relief and accomplishment from having performed his "survivor's duty" (Kaji) and overcoming all obstacles to his goal (Gendo).)

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Postby SaltyJoe » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:01 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Actually I think it is clear in 2.0 that Shinji does not pilot Eva for personal pleasure. He went back only to save Rei, so he pilots Eva for someone else, not for himself.

The only one who gets immediate gratification from rescuing Rei is Shinji. Rei even pleads Shinji to abandon her, but Shinji keeps going on because that is what he wants. He is acting on his own desires, with little care for anything or anyone else. If you do something for someone else without considering their point of view, you really can't say that you're doing it for them.

I think this point stands regardless of how one views Shinji's actions in relation to Rei's seeming resignation. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if in the future movies it would turn out that by keeping her alive as a human existence, Shinji damned Rei to much greater pains than mere death. She now entered the realm of fully realized humanity, and that is where true suffering dwells.


As for the "destruction of the world versus Shinji obtaining his goal" thing, from a thematic point of view, a good interpratation might be to view it as a conflict between the freedom of the individual and the constraints of reality. As Shinji gains ultimate freedom via the enabling power of the Eva, the world that put restrictions on him is slowly disintegrating. However, if the process would have run it's full course, and the world as we know it would have came to an end (let's just run with the idea that this would have happened, otherwise their wouldn't be much of a conflict going on), then even with Rei by his side, his existence would have lost all goal, all purpose, all meaning, only reaching the freedom of nothingness, essentially. IIRC, something very similar was touched upon in EoTV.

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:(... having performed his "survivor's duty" (Kaji) and overcoming all obstacles to his goal (Gendo).)

Those two are kind incompatible, at least in my view. I mean really, how do you reconcile "surviving pain and hardship can make you a more considerate, better person" with "be ruthless, you'll get the pony"? One may argue that elements of each leasson are present in Shinji's actions, but if we assume that, then we have to dilute the rather straightforward words of wisdom imparted on Shinji by Gendo and Kaji to a degree that their influence would turn minuscule, effectively like they said nothing at all.

EDIT:
For that matter, i think that the visual of the burnt water melon patch has nothing to do with anyone else other than Shinji. As symbol of growth destroyed, shown just after Shinji is spurred into action by seeing Rei getting devoured, who he has benn, well, nurturing, in a sense. Making her "grow".

For my two cents, i am of the opinion that Shinji ultimately sided with Gendo and only Gendo in his world damning antics. Not being able to deal with the pain of loss (like Kaji suggested he should be able to) is what (presumably) motivates both father and son to do the things they do.

And before anyone argues against it, yes, Shinji was damning the world, at least if we assume the line
I don't care about the world!

holds any meaning. If we suppose, like others have that "oh, he is only saying that, but it's not like he really thinks it", than the line, delivered in a highly dramatic situation with our attention directly called to it, simply fizzles, holding no valuable information. He could say anything instead, like, for example, "Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker", and the scene would have the same meaning.
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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:41 am

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:The only one who gets immediate gratification from rescuing Rei is Shinji. Rei even pleads Shinji to abandon her, but Shinji keeps going on because that is what he wants.

My take is that despite what Rei said, she is still happy that Shinji went so far to save her. We know Rei is never quite certain how to grasp human emotion, and she thinks mostly of her mission. I believe Shinji's care about her gave her a direct experience of what human love and care is really about. Does it mean gratification on Rei's side? Probably not, but she got something even more important.

Besides, what if Shinji just listened to Rei and left her be? Would everyone be safe then? Would the city be saved? Did the Angel make any promise by holding Rei hostage? No. So I could only interpret Rei asking her not to be saved as her showing concern that Shinji may be really risking his life by trying to save her. Shinji not listening to her and keeps trying just goes to show how committed he is to saving Rei's life.
View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:He is acting on his own desires, with little care for anything or anyone else. If you do something for someone else without considering their point of view, you really can't say that you're doing it for them.

As I said, he is acting on his care about Rei. Should caring for other person be called a desire? I don't think so. I would agree that he showed little care for anything else in the occasion though.
View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:I think this point stands regardless of how one views Shinji's actions in relation to Rei's seeming resignation. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if in the future movies it would turn out that by keeping her alive as a human existence, Shinji damned Rei to much greater pains than mere death. She now entered the realm of fully realized humanity, and that is where true suffering dwells.

Depends on how you look at the matter of humanity fully realized. Some say it is fully hell, some may say that it is worth any sacrifice to achieve. Who knows? Perhaps the coming movies may give us some glimpse what Anno thinks about this. (My bet is that he thinks it is not a bad thing to be a fully realized human being despite the suffering that entails).


View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:For my two cents, i am of the opinion that Shinji ultimately sided with Gendo and only Gendo in his world damning antics. Not being able to deal with the pain of loss (like Kaji suggested he should be able to) is what (presumably) motivates both father and son to do the things they do.

There are some similarities but Gendo is actively, wilfully and schemingly pullng people into his plot in order to get back to his loved one. In the case of Shinji, he did not even know he would casue any, ur what, Third Impact... I interpret that word of his as his stressing emphatically that saving Rei is his the one worthy mission that he found to be his calling, to the extent of, yes, everything else be damned, but he did not really have much idea of how things would turn out for others if he pushed on saving Rei. It could be argued that if he did not try to save Rei, terrible fate will still be awaitng for everyone around.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:52 am

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:If you do something for someone else without considering their point of view, you really can't say that you're doing it for them.

You're probably right on the fact that it's an egoistic decision but according to your reasoning we should just ignore people who are killing themselves right before our eyes rather than trying to stop them; it could be an egoistic choice but humans are intrinsically egoistic beings.
View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Shinji damned Rei to much greater pains than mere death.

She's "Rei II", we can probably assume that mere death wouldn't have ever arrived for her.
View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:She now entered the realm of fully realized humanity, and that is where true suffering dwells.

Rei had a suffering existence even without becoming fully human, maybe she could find also some happiness by accepting completely her humanity.
View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:For my two cents, i am of the opinion that Shinji ultimately sided with Gendo and only Gendo in his world damning antics. Not being able to deal with the pain of loss (like Kaji suggested he should be able to) is what (presumably) motivates both father and son to do the things they do.

Well, you could be right on this point, effectively I had the impression that Shinji was following Gendo's suggestions about adulthood; anyway Shinji acted instinctively, out of desperation, rather than coldly and systematically like Gendo.
View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:And before anyone argues against it, yes, Shinji was damning the world, at least if we assume the line
I don't care about the world!

But I really don't think that not caring about something is necessarily the same as damning it.
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Kamon-san » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:23 am

But I really don't think that not caring about something is necessarily the same as damning it.


Indeed.

Maybe I'm taking this too simply, but when I heard this line all I read into it was this: It reminded me of how Misato admitted that her vendetta against the Angels was vengeance for her father. ''Saving the World'' had little to do with it. I do believe she gave Shinji a similar speech in EoE before sending him to battle the MP Evas, saying he should do what HE feels is right, not for others but for himself.

Saying ''I don't care what happens to the world'' does sound like Shinji admitting that he's finally making that decision for himself, not for others. I feel he simply admits he doesn't have the pretentiousness of saying he desires to ''save the world'' either, all he cares for now is getting Rei back.

Like Hyper Shinchan said, not caring is not necessarily wishing for destruction.

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Postby driftking18594 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:54 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Another implied that Seele knew an Angel was going to infect an Eva though I don't think it makes them mind-readers or anything.


Aren't the Angels' appearances (i.e. how many and what they'd be like) predicted in the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Also, think about it: if Shinji/Rei is part of Gendo's scenario, that's all the more reason to let Eva-01 crush Asuka during the failed Eva-03 test.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:02 pm

View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:Aren't the Angels' appearances (i.e. how many and what they'd be like) predicted in the Dead Sea Scrolls?

I'd say that it's the case at least to some extent, Fuyutsuki said that the 10th Angel (Zeruel) was the most powerful of its type.
View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:Also, think about it: if Shinji/Rei is part of Gendo's scenario, that's all the more reason to let Eva-01 crush Asuka during the failed Eva-03 test.

But the decision of the test pilot was up to Misato, not Gendo, so it was just a coincidence that they had 00 out of use and Asuka inside Eva-03; also destroying the Eva was probably the only way to stop it, the area around the entry plug was completely contaminated by the Angel.
EDIT: I forgot to mention it, you made some interesting considerations about the parallel between what Shinji did and what Misato said in several circumstances, Kamon-san.
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Na7e » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:07 pm

View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:Also, think about it: if Shinji/Rei is part of Gendo's scenario, that's all the more reason to let Eva-01 crush Asuka during the failed Eva-03 test.


Not really. Lets maim one of our pilots. So were down to 2. When evangelion pilots are a rare occurance. So he's kind of shooting his plan in the foot. Cuz now Unit-01 has to fight. And he really didn't want that.

Also, given the activation history of all the Eva's except the Mark 6. It would be much better to put someone expendable like Kensuke or maybe Mari getting her out of the way as the pilot.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:25 pm

The 9th Angel's core had grown around and within the entry plug. Destroying the plug was the only way to kill the Angel.

This thread isn't about 3.0 Speculation anymore, so what the hell is this tangent about?

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Postby SaltyJoe » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:56 pm

@symbv and HyperShinchan:
1., My argument is that Shinji sought to save Rei for himself, not because Rei wanted to be saved. He wanted to get her out of there no matter what because he felt like it's the right thing to do. Rei's stance on things, or indeed, her very person didn't matter as much to Shinji as the idea that he has to save someone he thinks is close to him (which is something of a delusion, given that he knows almost nothing about Rei. He has some surface impressions, but that's it). Point is, he was doing this for himself mainly (Misato cheers him for this exact reason), not so much for Rei's sake, at least in my reading of things.

And yes, the strong desire to save someone for yourself is still a desire, a strong emotional charge that drives a person towards a goal. That's what desire is, no?

2., If you look closely, you can see a rainbow appear after Eva-01 blasts through Zeruel's A.T. field. My guess is that this means the Angel is dead, and Unit-00's core and Rei's essence is what's holding it's physical form together. So yes, the threat was gone when Shinji started corediving for Rei. This doesn't make what he was doing automatically wrong, mind you, but it does infrom the audience a bit. "The hero keeps on pushing forward, despite the situation being resolved from a rational point of view".

3., Rei had never before experienced what could be called love, but now with Shinji, the deal has been sealed, at least in her heart (this doesn't mean that she completely rejects Gendo, though). This puts her into a position of delicate vulnerability, especially when one considers that her emotions for Shinji are more genuine thatn vice versa (my take, at least).

My hunch is that ultimately the contrast between Shinji's selfish clinging and Rei's pure love will come to a head in a scenario where Shinji breaks up with her, causing Rei the biggest trauma of her life.

4., Shinji and Gendo may differ in methods, but their motivations are the same. By the way, Gendo is also a selfish clinger who disregards what the object of his desire wanted (that is, to take care of Shinji).

5., Not caring about the world is damning it, when you are the one tasked with protecting it.

View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:Also, think about it: if Shinji/Rei is part of Gendo's scenario, that's all the more reason to let Eva-01 crush Asuka during the failed Eva-03 test.

It was Misato who decided on the pilot of Umnit-03. Unless we assume she has intimate knowledge of Gendo's agenda, this line of reasoning falls apart.

EDIT:
Ninja'ed by HyperShinchan.

Also
This thread isn't about 3.0 Speculation anymore, so what the hell is this tangent about?

It's the good old "Shinji: more in the right or in the wrong?" debate. But come on, that's the most pertinent question about the entirety of Rebuild. The most important question up for speculation.
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Postby Ornette » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:10 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:It's the good old "Shinji: more in the right or the wrong?" debate. But come on, that's the most pertinent question about the entirety of Rebuild.

Which gets thoroughly ringed through here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/9781/Shinjis-portrayal-in-Eva-20-222/

Which is fine and all, but if it's more about Shinji than any tie to whatever speculation for 3.0 , then the thread needs to be steered back on topic.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:49 pm

There's also these threads I linked to, which were ignored:

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Complete Records Collection Scrapped scenes: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/10976/Eva-2XX-Storyboards-vs-Final/0/?

Shinji's actions and the vibe of the ending were perviously discussed here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/11496/Control-of-Near-3I-Shinji-vs-Eva-Yui/
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:29 pm

What does any of this have to do with 3.0 speculation? This thread was already given a call for Topic once today.
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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:32 pm

How does everyone think FCS Mode will be used in Q?


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