symbv wrote:Hmm...perhaps I gave that impression because I only reported on the EoE interpretations I have seen on the Japanese website as that was the main focus for my posts here. There are discussions about EoTV as well in Japanese blogs and forums but usually as part of analysis of the TV series itself.

I see, that's good to know. It's interesting that no effort was made to reconcile the two, but then again movies that take place in AUs than the series that spawned them seem to be really common in Japan.

I wonder how common NemZ's view is in Japan, then. Since Japanese viewers would be largely "unspoiled", as it were, by the DC material it'd be interesting to see if his reading really is the natural one among the intended audience for the show.

I think I have provided my view as well as views I gleaned from Japanese websites - there are a couple of these I posted. To me they may not look 100% satisfactory or even convincing, but they also look valid and plausible to me.

I think they work fine in a meta sense, and I think they do an admirable job of explaining Shinji's mindset throughout that sequence. But the problem is that they don't explain how Asuka got to that point. This just gets back to the maddening point that we don't know what happened to Asuka (or anyone else apart from Shinji) during Instrumentality in EoE.

Bagheera wrote:I think they work fine in a meta sense, and I think they do an admirable job of explaining Shinji's mindset throughout that sequence. But the problem is that they don't explain how Asuka got to that point. This just gets back to the maddening point that we don't know what happened to Asuka (or anyone else apart from Shinji) during Instrumentality in EoE.

Oh yes, I forgot my posts covered mainly Shinji's part in EoE ending.... Right, in fact discussion of Asuka almost a side subject beside the main analysis of Shinji's motives and thoughts in EoE. For what I have gathered, the views are common in at least one thing: that Asuka's caress is indeed a sign of showing care and love. As for the motives, there is little to discuss except we don't know what Asuka went through during the Instrumentality but quite possibly she went through something. Linking it back to the Asuka's session in EoTV is convenient - although I have seen such connection made in the blogs I read so far.

If Asuka indeed went through something during Instrumentality, one could assume that other human, while returned to this Earth, may also show signs of change from what they were just before they were turned into LCL.

symbv wrote:Oh yes, I forgot my posts covered mainly Shinji's part in EoE ending.... Right, in fact discussion of Asuka almost a side subject beside the main analysis of Shinji's motives and thoughts in EoE. For what I have gathered, the views are common in at least one thing: that Asuka's caress is indeed a sign of showing care and love. As for the motives, there is little to discuss except we don't know what Asuka went through during the Instrumentality but quite possibly she went through something. Linking it back to the Asuka's session in EoTV is convenient - although I have seen such connection made in the blogs I read so far.

Did you mean "have not"? Context and previous posts suggest this hasn't shown up in your explorations thus far.

If Asuka indeed went through something during Instrumentality, one could assume that other human, while returned to this Earth, may also show signs of change from what they were just before they were turned into LCL.

Yes, agreed. But we don't see any real evidence of that in EoE. Given that this is the case, why haven't more Japanese fans attempted to reconcile EoTV and EoE? Maybe they just don't care about Asuka.

Bagheera wrote:Did you mean "have not"? Context and previous posts suggest this hasn't shown up in your explorations thus far.

Right, I wanted to say "although I have not seen such connection made in the blogs I read so far."

Bagheera wrote:Yes, agreed. But we don't see any real evidence of that in EoE. Given that this is the case, why haven't more Japanese fans attempted to reconcile EoTV and EoE? Maybe they just don't care about Asuka.

Or because too much of EoE is focused solely on Shinji (yes, Asuka was right in saying that she became a "side-dish" -- this is what happened in Anno's treatment of her in EoE !!) so any analysis naturally was focused on Shinji as well. Perhaps the viewers just did not feel that EoTV and EoE are really in the same concurrency after all, and just the part of Asuka's session in EoTV is not sufficient to get them to include EoTV in their interpretation and analysis regarding EoE. Of course this is just my personal speculation...

On the other hand, I find the notion of all human beings undergoing some self-discovery and learning something about relationship during 3I pretty intriguing.

symbv wrote:Or because too much of EoE is focused solely on Shinji (yes, Asuka was right in saying that she became a "side-dish" -- this is what happened in Anno's treatment of her in EoE !!)

It's hard to believe she's Anno's favorite given the way he keeps on margionalizing her. She has her moment in Air, but gets swept aside without even an epilogue in OMF, and then rendered largely superfluous in the new movies. But then we have Asuka IN SPAAAAAACE in Q so who knows?

On the other hand, I find the notion of all human beings undergoing some self-discovery and learning something about relationship during 3I pretty intriguing.

The whole endeavor seems largely pointless otherwise. Of course, if Japanese fans make such an assumption it's easy to see why they'd blow off EoTV; it's hardly necessary once you assume they got a similar treatment in EoE and just don't sweat the details.

Bagheera wrote:Do we have interviews indicating such archived anywhere?

I don't know about interviews (gwern might), but the (non-Japanese) sci-fi references that are made include (off the top of my head): Ellison ("The Beast Who Shouted Love..."), Heinlein ("The Door Into Summer", provisional title for "Air"), Clarke/Kubrick ("2001"), Cordwainer Smith ("Instrumentality of Mankind"), Tiptree ("The Only Neat Thing to Do"; cf. Proposal episodes), L'Engle (farandolae), Star Trek, and The Day the Earth Stood Still. Not sure if that selection indicates as much of the influence Tines is seeing.

Reichu wrote:I don't know about interviews (gwern might), but the (non-Japanese) sci-fi references that are made include (off the top of my head): Ellison ("The Beast Who Shouted Love..."), Heinlein ("The Door Into Summer", provisional title for "Air"), Clarke/Kubrick ("2001"), Cordwainer Smith ("Instrumentality of Mankind"), Tiptree ("The Only Neat Thing to Do"; cf. Proposal episodes), L'Engle (farandolae), Star Trek, and The Day the Earth Stood Still. Not sure if that selection indicates as much of the influence Tines is seeing.

That's an interesting list. I was more meaning commentary from the crew on what they were into at the time, but the references alone are food for thought.

Bagheera wrote:Do we have interviews indicating such archived anywhere?

There's a difference between what is a natural reading of various cues for a member of the audience and what the articulated intent of the author might have been.

If you want the Word of God from Anno, no, and probably never. But given the context -- a guy who gives a shout out to various SF works (e.g. in NGE episode titles) putting together a series by the seat of his pants at that particular time -- it's a natural inference for someone who knows what was going on at the time to make, that the series would have, wittingly or not, drawn on some of the themes that informed its zeitgeist.

I saw EoE, and it never occurred to me that it was a separate continuity than EoTV

Whereas the notion that it was a total replacement ending came to me while I was watching it -- probably about the time that GNR bits started to fall to earth, definitely by One More Final.

symbv wrote:given that none of the EoE discussions I have read in Japanese websites include the last 2 episodes in their analyses, I am inclined to think that viewers in Japan basically seperates out the last 2 episodes when they look at EoE.

That places the comments on episode 26 in the Literal Translation project into context:

I have nothing to say. Eva#26 the final Episode was a collage of
grafiti, and a collection of the words of cult or sect leaders.
"The instrumentality of man project" was nothing but brainwashing.

I really anticipate the remake. At least the last two or three episodes should be remade. Nobody wishes to buy LDs that contains exactly the same scenes as the TV version. ... In this sense, the video recorded TV show will be a very rare collectors item.

Bagheera wrote:I wonder how common NemZ's view is in Japan, then. Since Japanese viewers would be largely "unspoiled", as it were, by the DC material it'd be interesting to see if his reading really is the natural one among the intended audience for the show

Actually, what we call the DC version is the original Japanese home video release.

Mr. Tines wrote:There's a difference between what is a natural reading of various cues for a member of the audience and what the articulated intent of the author might have been.

If you want the Word of God from Anno, no, and probably never. But given the context -- a guy who gives a shout out to various SF works (e.g. in NGE episode titles) putting together a series by the seat of his pants at that particular time -- it's a natural inference for someone who knows what was going on at the time to make, that the series would have, wittingly or not, drawn on some of the themes that informed its zeitgeist.

I don't disagree at all. However, I think it's a pretty big leap from "this probably influenced their work" to the fairly detailed proposal you and NemZ have advocated in the past.

Simply put, I think it's easily possible that both endings reference the exact same events. I also think it's easily possible that they are different continuities, and that different Instrumentality scenarios unfold in each. I think it's unlikely that humanity winds up a happy post-human collective in EoTV, though, because that doesn't seem to dovetail with anything said within or about the show either before or since.

(mind you, I do think it's a valid reading, as I've said. But I don't see much in the way of support for it in the preceding episodes, and there's nothing concrete that indicates that this is what's taking place. If there's nothing but inference supporting the notion I have to call it a stretch, particularly when it clashes with openly stated themes of the show.)

Whereas the notion that it was a total replacement ending came to me while I was watching it -- probably about the time that GNR bits started to fall to earth, definitely by One More Final.

As I said to Symbv, though, replacement ending != alternate continuity. It's more "this is a replacement ending. The same events occur, but the movie approach uses a slicker format to make the fans happy."

Actually, what we call the DC version is the original Japanese home video release.

Yes, but that wasn't the first exposure Japanese fans had to the show. I'm talking about their reaction to the on-air version, prior to the home video release.

symbv wrote:In the long history of philosophy there have been quit a number of thinkers who wondered whether the world as we perceive is actually just a mental cretion from our own mind and is not objective reality, of which it may be impossible for us to tell. In pop-culture, it may be a game world in which every other people you meet are just game characters. In this way, each can live in his/her own world with only his/her mind at work and they can be perpetually under the illusion that those other people he/she meets are real people.

...you know, it's funny...when people say that life is just a dream. Life gives the world meaning because life interprets it; without that interpretation, the world isn't anything and even its very existence becomes questionable.

...it feels so weird to hear someone claim that life is just a dream; it's seems much more important than that. Why create a universe that is capable of interpreting itself if the goal isn't to understand itself?

gnwopkt wrote:...it feels so weird to hear someone claim that life is just a dream; it's seems much more important than that. Why create a universe that is capable of interpreting itself if the goal isn't to understand itself?

It is arguable whether living in a subjectively created and perceived environment is the same as living in a dream. But that aside, your question is a good starting point, but you may have already picked your answer before the question: Who could say that there is a goal, much less to understand itself? Also, subjective perception may not be the same as creating everything like your subconscious mind wants to go, and herein lies the biggest difference from "living in a dream". There may still be an objective reality out there, but it is possible that we cannot never know about it and everything we perceive is filtered and "distorted" through our mind -- this may be what "subjective perception" is about. And this may be what people at the end of EoTV instrumentality are like (just one of the possibilities).

It is arguable whether living in a subjectively created and perceived environment is the same as living in a dream. But that aside, your question is a good starting point, but you may have already picked your answer before the question: Who could say that there is a goal, much less to understand itself?

If we assumed no goal, how we would solve the problem of reality stubbornly persisting? Why doesn't it go away?

Also, subjective perception may not be the same as creating everything like your subconscious mind wants to go, and herein lies the biggest difference from "living in a dream".

Yeah, maybe you're right. But couldn't I just as easily say that the subconscious mind is a manifestation of where we want to go? It is after all a representation of the projection of our archetype through the nurturing of nature, its nurtured expression on the world then being just as much involuntary as it is uniquely voluntary for the individual.

symbv wrote:There may still be an objective reality out there, but it is possible that we cannot never know about it and everything we perceive is filtered and "distorted" through our mind -- this may be what "subjective perception" is about. And this may be what people at the end of EoTV instrumentality are like (just one of the possibilities).

That's interesting; what I'm led to believe is that there is no objective world without the subjective filter. In other words, can something mean anything without first being filtered? Or in another sense, can the world mean anything without thought to distinguish it from parts of itself? I came to the conclusion of 'no' because it seems the objective world is that which simply is; it would have no distinctions on its own. We then would give it distinction and merit its existence by doing so (rewarding existence for awarding us with life). I ask questions then to see if what I say can be refuted, so that I may know something more.

gnwopkt wrote:If we assumed no goal, how we would solve the problem of reality stubbornly persisting? Why doesn't it go away?

Does persistence of reality requires a goal in itself?

gnwopkt wrote:Yeah, maybe you're right. But couldn't I just as easily say that the subconscious mind is a manifestation of where we want to go? It is after all a representation of the projection of our archetype through the nurturing of nature, its nurtured expression on the world then being just as much involuntary as it is uniquely voluntary for the individual.

Yeah, you could also say that. This is why there are so many schools of thought about existence and reality. I am just raising a possibility to explain one interpretation of what happened in EoTV.

gnwopkt wrote:That's interesting; what I'm led to believe is that there is no objective world without the subjective filter. In other words, can something mean anything without first being filtered? Or in another sense, can the world mean anything without thought to distinguish it from parts of itself? I came to the conclusion of 'no' because it seems the objective world is that which simply is; it would have no distinctions on its own. We then would give it distinction and merit its existence by doing so (rewarding existence for awarding us with life). I ask questions then to see if what I say can be refuted, so that I may know something more.

Yup, so this is how it is different from living in a dream (of course there are people who would argue that we are indeed living in our own dream but that's something else). On the other hand, it is hard to say if there is really no objective world without the subjective filter. Does objective world still exist if all humans, with their subjective filter, are gone? It may have no meaning (as "meaning" is a human concept after all) or distinction or merit but can we then say it does not exist?

Reichu wrote:sci-fi references that are made include...

It's worth noting that the Japanese fan community view of Western SF differs from that of native speakers. One quite relevant case is E. E. 'Doc' Smith's Lensman series, which in various forms (often less than properly licensed) remains to this day way more popular in Japanese SF circles than in its native America (to the extent of having updated editions in which the original 1940's tech -- such as the computers being the girls cranking the adding machines -- has been overhauled for the contemporary reader).

While 2001 has evolutionary uplift by remote god-like extraterrestrials, the Lensman series adds explicitly a single primordial super-civilization seeding the galaxy, and has group-minds and minds-wide-open telepathic conferencing amongst the next-step and near-to-next-step sophonts.

Bagheera wrote:I don't disagree at all. However, I think it's a pretty big leap from "this probably influenced their work" to the fairly detailed proposal you and NemZ have advocated in the past.

Two levels here -- what the author intended; and what the viewer sees.

In the former case, we know the story was to some extent being made up as they went along, part of the structure we see is going to be post hoc rationalization, as much by the creators as by any of us.

With just the TV series (and the extra-textual knowledge that this is made by a studio full of SF fans) -- all its obscure hints about Gendo's master-plan of apotheosis, and its other casual dropping of genre cues

IKARI (OFF):
A cavern left behind by someone, who was not us.

that suffice to tell us that the GeoFront is a Forerunner artefact -- a reading of the ending on equally SFnal terms as upload (or, dropping the pure materialist notion in favour of NGE's dualist model, soul transfer) to some unspecified substrate (perhaps EVA-01, if we take a hint from various asides in EoE) is natural.

With secondary sources like the NGE2 game (and its various end scenarios) I feel it's reasonable to assume that something along these lines was intended, even if only along the lines of "Let's use Gendo's hinted master-plan to justify putting the characters into a wide-open N-way so we can do the last two episodes as abstractly as we need, given the budget."

As I said to Symbv, though, replacement ending != alternate continuity. It's more "this is a replacement ending. The same events occur, but the movie approach uses a slicker format to make the fans happy."

By replacement, I meant unplug the old and busted one and discard it -- and that seems to be the approach taken by the Japanese fan-base.

When I first saw EoE, the cognitive dissonance of trying to hold the two endings into the same continuity became, as I said, too much to maintain towards the end -- in the one, Shinji is happy, and with others; in the other, distraught and isolated. Knowing now more about the circumstances of the productions, it seems likely that the harsher treatment of the characters, and the different and downbeat end are the fingerprints of Anno's later bout of depression; and that in each case Shinji ends up roughly where Anno was at the time.

Mr. Tines wrote:When I first saw EoE, the cognitive dissonance of trying to hold the two endings into the same continuity became, as I said, too much to maintain towards the end -- in the one, Shinji is happy, and with others; in the other, distraught and isolated.

This is a pretty good summary of the views held by people I managed to talk to in Japan.

Mr. Tines wrote:Knowing now more about the circumstances of the productions, it seems likely that the harsher treatment of the characters, and the different and downbeat end are the fingerprints of Anno's later bout of depression; and that in each case Shinji ends up roughly where Anno was at the time.

This is a good insight. I always hold the feeling that Anno was in much worse shape when he made EoE compared to the time when he was doing EoTV, but it makes sense to extend this to a view that probably how Shinji ended up in TV vs the movie revealed Anno's mental state at the time.

Also I just noticed that Bagheera said "the movie approach uses a slicker format to make the fans happy." That would be true only if the fans are really happy. Slicker format a movie may be, but any initial euphoria and excitment was crushed and dispelled when we saw how low Shinji sank and Misato then Asuka got brutally murdered one by one. If the movie was made to make the fans happy, it is only a strong medicine or poison (depending on your view) coated in sugar - only the initial appearance made the fans happy, which I cannot see was the purpose of why the movie was made. The reactions from the fans after seeing EoTV and EoE were really different - EoTV was more like puzzlement and awkwardness, although the message seemed clear enough (it was explicitly spelt out to you after all); while EoE caused pain and distraughtness, and the message was actually confusing to many who watched it on live screens.

Yep, I've got nothing to add to what Tines said. Just dropping by to add a +1.

Mr. Tines wrote:Two levels here -- what the author intended; and what the viewer sees.

If your scenario doesn't match up with what the author intended and requires a very specific background to work it doesn't seem all that natural a reading to me. That's why I was asking Symbv about the impressions of viewers in Japan after seeing the initial broadcast.

that suffice to tell us that the GeoFront is a Forerunner artefact -- a reading of the ending on equally SFnal terms as upload (or, dropping the pure materialist notion in favour of NGE's dualist model, soul transfer) to some unspecified substrate (perhaps EVA-01, if we take a hint from various asides in EoE) is natural.

You can't take hints from EoE when positing a natural reading of broadcast EoTV!

Also, as I recall we still have no idea as to what Gendo's master plan even was. Did Reichu ever get to it in NGE2?

Bagheera wrote:You can't take hints from EoE when positing a natural reading of broadcast EoTV!

Then the substrate remains unknown (and reasonably irrelevant); later materials merely permit us to hazard a guess at a candidate. And Gendo's master plan remains what we can infer from the hints.

symbv wrote:This is a pretty good summary of the views held by people I managed to talk to in Japan.

That dissonance always struck me as odd; if one views them as a sequence, going from EoTV to EoEoE to OMF the transition seems fairly straightforward.

This is a good insight. I always hold the feeling that Anno was in much worse shape when he made EoE compared to the time when he was doing EoTV, but it makes sense to extend this to a view that probably how Shinji ended up in TV vs the movie revealed Anno's mental state at the time.

On a meta level that's certainly reasonable.

Also I just noticed that Bagheera said "the movie approach uses a slicker format to make the fans happy." That would be true only if the fans are really happy.

Not as such. Make it "satisfied" instead of "happy", if it helps. They wanted a real ending that dealt with the plot rather than an intensive mind-meld assisted group therapy session. Even if they found it disturbing EoE more closely matched fan expectations than EoTV ever did.

Mr. Tines wrote:Then the substrate remains unknown (and reasonably irrelevant); later materials merely permit us to hazard a guess at a candidate. And Gendo's master plan remains what we can infer from the hints.

Which means we're back to the natural reading being puzzlement and awkwardness, as Symbv noted.

Bagheera wrote:That dissonance always struck me as odd; if one views them as a sequence, going from EoTV to EoEoE to OMF the transition seems fairly straightforward.

As Tines said, going from EoTV to EoE looks odd to so many viewers in Japan. The fact that you don't find it odd strikes me as odd. :p

Bagheera wrote:Not as such. Make it "satisfied" instead of "happy", if it helps.

That's more like it, although as I said many viewers could not see the connection between EoTV and EoE, and would rather see it as Anno having some other ideas and in a different state when he made the movie.

Bagheera wrote:They wanted a real ending that dealt with the plot rather than an intensive mind-meld assisted group therapy session. Even if they found it disturbing EoE more closely matched fan expectations than EoTV ever did.

I think the fans wanted a real ending that would match Shinji's and everyone's smiling faces on EoTV. They could not see them in EoE. I am not sure they found EoE really match their expectations, except for the fact that a "real ending" in terms of wrapping the story was indeed produced as fans demanded. Whether it was really something fans had expected is a different question.