Flaws in NGE?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:54 pm

View Original PostStryker wrote:Is that so? I would take that with a grain of salt, but if that is true, that's not too good for Anno. Hope he gets better.

I know Xard doesn't.


Of course he does! He just hopes he finishes Q first. :devil:
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Postby gatotsu911 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:08 pm

View Original PostSEELE_Man wrote:Anno's depression.

Really, that's the core flaw of Evangelion.

I'm sorry, did you want to watch Gurren Lagann? I think you wanted to watch Gurren Lagann. That forum's elsewhere.
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Postby Polker11 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:18 am

Back on the topic of episode 11's relativity

I never really liked that episode to be honest but the whole abortion imagery is probably there for some obscure reason (one of many Anno only knows the answer to) you could say is some messed up way that Asuka would rather have been aborted introducing the whole concept of Asuka shitty childhood or it could just back up the "Angels are children" theory. Another thing about episode 7 is (and I could be extremely wrong) that they never show who sabotaged (oh god I'm blanking) Jet-Alone(?) or who at last minute shut it down or in ep 11 when it is never revealed who cut the power source, Gendo did say that it was a human that did it, not an angel.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:14 am

View Original PostPolker11 wrote:Back on the topic of episode 11's relativity

I never really liked that episode to be honest but the whole abortion imagery is probably there for some obscure reason (one of many Anno only knows the answer to) you could say is some messed up way that Asuka would rather have been aborted introducing the whole concept of Asuka shitty childhood or it could just back up the "Angels are children" theory. Another thing about episode 7 is (and I could be extremely wrong) that they never show who sabotaged (oh god I'm blanking) Jet-Alone(?) or who at last minute shut it down or in ep 11 when it is never revealed who cut the power source, Gendo did say that it was a human that did it, not an angel.


Ritsuko both sabotaged Jet Alone and shut it down; the whole thing was a setup to make the robot look bad.

Kaji cut the power in Ep 11.

Also, you seem to be mixing up 10 and 11.
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Postby Stryker » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:34 pm

I just realized this:

The LCL is liquid right? So, when Rei was being raped by Armisael, and started crying, wouldn't that mean that her teardrops would float in the LCL?
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Postby AshPhoenix » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:55 pm

View Original PostStryker wrote:I just realized this:

The LCL is liquid right? So, when Rei was being raped by Armisael, and started crying, wouldn't that mean that her teardrops would float in the LCL?

Not if LCL is less dense than salt water (i.e., tears). Either way, you're right, though. The tears shouldn't have fallen that fast, even if LCL is less dense than tears. I guess it's just an anime physics thing.
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Postby chloe00 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:37 am

I like neko..

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Sat May 09, 2015 2:27 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I admit that'd make for some decent fanfic. Messy, but I can see how it'd work.



I don't. IMO the problem here is that you're thinking of Kaworu as a human, and expecting him to bond with Shinji as such. But he isn't a human. He's an angel, and his bonding with Shinji isn't one of friendship -- it's an attack (whether or not he intends it to be such is a matter of debate, but there's no denying what it is). It's supposed to slip past Shinji's defenses like they're not even there, and the slow buildup you describe doesn't fit with what Kaworu is.

Kaworu isn't some good friend who betrays the hero. Rather, he's the final enemy that's meant to break him. When you look at the episode in that context I think it's a lot easier to take at face value.






This is an interesting position to take in the sense that almost every Angel's "character arc" is literally the span of one episode: they arrive, make an attack, and are destroyed in an Eva battle. The fact that Tarbis showed up as human in the form of Kaworu is part of the attack itself. Shinji's conversations with him are the attacks. The final attack is in line with every other angel's death: at the hands of an Eva (usually Unit 01).

Also, after Zereul (arguably the most aggressive up to that point), the Angels' tactics had shifted from physical brutality to psychological invasion. What's more invasive than human interaction?

In that sense, Shinji relinquishes part of his personal A.T. field through is communication with Kaworu who acts as sort of moth piece that vocalizes the motivations of the Angels themselves.

Thus, Kaworu kind of comes and goes just as much as an other angel in the series (with the exceptions of Lilith and Adam of course).

The fact that he comes as a human has many other foreshadowing/symbolic implications as well...
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Postby LordThaeon » Sat May 09, 2015 3:34 pm

Objectively, the biggest weak spot of NGE is SEELE themselves.

The series consists of this organization making mostly idiotic and avoidable decisions that only hamper their plans and yet, they still end up "winning" and accomplishing their goal.

They only stand as antagonists because the plot wants them to succeed and their pathetic/selfish motivations are wrapped in pseudo-philosophy and unfounded self-righteousness.

Not to mention that the series itself (aka, no outside supplemental material) doesn't do a good job of clarifying the differences between Gendo's instrumentality and Seele's instrumentality and why they'd end up betraying each other except to decide who "controls" Third Impact. But again, if the result is apparently the same either way then what's the point? Why trust Gendo at all and not try to take him out at the earliest opportunity so that their version of Third Impact can proceed on the path of least resistance?
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Postby Shoujo Kakumei Asuka » Sat May 09, 2015 3:53 pm

I agree with SEELE always winning even though their plans didn't seem that great. I honestly think that Eva was meant to mostly be about the characters, and that they almost didn't think many of the overall events were that important. That's why we're still piecing everything together 20 years after the fact. This is why SEELE was presented as something almost all-powerful within the series. They were presented as this ominous, oppressive force that further weighed down upon the already depressed and stressed-out characters within the show.
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Postby Compiling_Autumn » Sat May 09, 2015 7:32 pm

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:This is an interesting position to take in the sense that almost every Angel's "character arc" is literally the span of one episode: they arrive, make an attack, and are destroyed in an Eva battle. The fact that Tarbis showed up as human in the form of Kaworu is part of the attack itself. Shinji's conversations with him are the attacks. The final attack is in line with every other angel's death: at the hands of an Eva (usually Unit 01).

Also, after Zereul (arguably the most aggressive up to that point), the Angels' tactics had shifted from physical brutality to psychological invasion. What's more invasive than human interaction?

In that sense, Shinji relinquishes part of his personal A.T. field through is communication with Kaworu who acts as sort of moth piece that vocalizes the motivations of the Angels themselves.

Thus, Kaworu kind of comes and goes just as much as an other angel in the series (with the exceptions of Lilith and Adam of course).

The fact that he comes as a human has many other foreshadowing/symbolic implications as well...


The number of fans who see Kaworu and Shinji as the ideal/preferred relationship in the series is a testament to the effectiveness of the attack
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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Sun May 10, 2015 4:34 am

View Original PostShoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:I agree with SEELE always winning even though their plans didn't seem that great. I honestly think that Eva was meant to mostly be about the characters, and that they almost didn't think many of the overall events were that important. That's why we're still piecing everything together 20 years after the fact. This is why SEELE was presented as something almost all-powerful within the series. They were presented as this ominous, oppressive force that further weighed down upon the already depressed and stressed-out characters within the show.


I really see Seele in the background, pretty much all the time, no matter how many lines Keel or the monoliths get in a given episode.
The heroes and villains of the series are ultimately people/humanity. The biggest antagonist of any character in the series is, in order,
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Seele is a narrative device that basically ensures this happens also at humanity level, since the Angels would never have happened unless humanity bothered sleeping Adam, which in turn wasn't really meant to be there because planet Earth had already its Seed of Life (or wait were the Angels the true successors from the White Moon? I guess it doesn't matter?).
Seele is there to show how humanity can be its own enemy, the debate between science and para-religious creeds (i.e. what Seele is) is the battlefield of this struggle, just like for other characters it is the parent-child relationships, the partner relationships or the way you think about yourself (Freudian psychology and what not).
EoTV totally makes (even more) sense once you think about it.

I reckon the flaw of Eva, if anything, is that the window dressing is almost too good and, to me personally, it has aged better than the character aspect of the story, which are not so easy to appreciate. As a viewer, you are either too close to some of the characters (to the point you can't gaze at the mirror for too long through the story) or you are so far from them that you'll find them pathetic, ridiculous ("crying Shinji" was NGE's worst flaw in the eyes of the casual viewer) and consequently focus on the obvious giants mechas vs giant monsters stuff, just to then be disappointed by the unclear narration and small technical fallacies...

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Postby Atropos » Sun May 10, 2015 10:26 am

View Original PostLordThaeon wrote:Objectively, the biggest weak spot of NGE is SEELE themselves.

The series consists of this organization making mostly idiotic and avoidable decisions that only hamper their plans and yet, they still end up "winning" and accomplishing their goal.

They only stand as antagonists because the plot wants them to succeed and their pathetic/selfish motivations are wrapped in pseudo-philosophy and unfounded self-righteousness.

As others have said, the real reason SEELE is all-powerful is because their whole conspiracy isn't meant to be "the point" of the show...but if we want a Watsonian explanation, it's this:

SEELE can afford to be sloppy because they don't have any enemies. They're running the whole show; they rule the world and no one can oppose them for long. NGE takes place in a world where the "bad guys" of another show—perhaps a Cold War-era spy drama, or a Dan Brown-style thriller—have already won.

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Postby EvangelionGodMode » Sun May 10, 2015 11:12 am

View Original PostLordThaeon wrote:Objectively, the biggest weak spot of NGE is SEELE themselves.


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