Misato killed Kaji

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Postby Allemann » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:05 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Perhaps. :shrug:


As DoT is a text itself, we can interpret it as we see it fit.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:11 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Honestly, this tangent is OT anyway but since the topic was troll job to begin with this whole thing is pretty pointless. To even parade "lol Misato killed Kaji" around is pure intellectual masturbation that has no basis on the original work (unless it's subjected to some twisted "interprepting" aka seeing what one wants to see there). Or a troll, like here. It's sad that people seriously start to debate about stuff like this.


And yet here you are, an active participant in the thread! :lol:
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:13 am

edit: damn topic is growing faster than I can respond!

@Xard:
SPOILER: Show

When language is treated as relative system where any signs are malleable in meaning and there's no author who purposefully used them in certain sense to reader (in Eva's case viewer) any text can pretty much mean anything.


To varying degree, yes, but only to the extent that it doesn't contradict the text itself.

And no, no absolute meaning exists in the text


Of course it doesn't. The text itself is meaningless, but it's existence as a specific object that provokes meanings within observers is absolute, and any such meaning must be built around and on that unchanging framework.

In such discussions it's presumed that there is inherent, definitive meaning imbued to the text (law). If the text of law could mean anything at all it's silly to even talk about "unconstitutional".


That's a rather big tangent (letter of the law vs. spirit of the law), but I submit that the 'spirit' side of the argument is subjective and relative to each reader of the law, while the letter is fixed... or at least as fixed as anything reliant on the vagueries of grammar can be. The best answer to the needs of justice is probably a bit of both, but undoubtedly the letter of the law MUST be dominant because without it there is no continuity for people to live by, merely the whims of the court.

And as we all know Smurfs are communists and Gargamel antisemitic caricature of Jew.

under DotA there's no meaningful distinction between seeing things that aren't there and the text itself.


I thought Gargamel was more of a Rasputin character, but otherwise I can see where that reading is coming from, yeah.

Meaning is only in the mind, but for it to be worth discussing it has to be somehow predicated on the framework of the text so that a common benchmark for comparison can be established. Just saying whatever the hell you want is pointless, but in the Smurf example there definately are parallels, unintentional or not, to be seen.


Allemann wrote:I also fails the verificationist criteria of meaning.


It's all predicated on absolutes (which DotA denies) so this isn't really a surprise. The only senses in which meaning can be verified are the dry facts of a text and what it means to the viewer personally. Everything else is subjective.

FFF4 wrote:Well, at that point it just becomes the viewer not understanding what it was the author was trying to say, which could be either the fault of the viewer or the author. Miscommunication, if you will.


Yes, but you're also assuming that communication of the author to the audience is the only message that matters. Rather, I think that the messages from audience members to each other and back to the author with regards to the original work can be just as important, if not more so. A perfectly clear communication (for example, a stop sign) isn't all that interesting; it's the works that aren't clear that people dwell on and really care about... eva, for example.

That's how unimportance Anno thought showing the character was.


Counterpoint: "Akagi Ritsuko, I truely-"

Besides, you're still thinking in terms of what Anno cares about as the only things that are important, which leads me to suspect you don't understand this whole DotA thing at all.

As to the rest, I suspect the mods aren't anxious to start up yet another "god exists: y/n?" thread.
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Postby CJD » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:11 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:
Besides, you're still thinking in terms of what Anno cares about as the only things that are important, which leads me to suspect you don't understand this whole DotA thing at all.




But how can you say that the viewers perspective is just as important as the authors? I'm not fluent on DotA (But I do enjoy LoL :lol: ), but it seems to me that it's saying the viewers opinion is just as important as the authors. Am I mistaken? When I look at a work, I see that there's a core intent, because there is a core intent: what the author intended.

I can pretend all I want that the Star Wars prequels aren't canon, but the fact is they are. When it comes to Star Wars lore, Lucas is God, he's Judge and Jury. If he says that Jedi are an allegory for the navy Seals, that's the truth. It may be stupid, it may make no sense, but the fact is that it's the intended message.
Last edited by CJD on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby esselfortium » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:15 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote:But how can you say that the viewers perspective is just as important as the authors? I'm not fluent on DotA (But I do enjoy LoL :lol: ), but it seems to me that it's saying the viewers opinion is just as important as the authors. Am I mistaken? When I look at a work, I see that there's a core intent, because there is a core intent: what the author intended.

I can pretend all I want that the Star Wars prequels aren't canon, but the fact is they are. When it comes to Star Wars lore, Lucas is God, he's Judge and Jury. If he says that Jedi are an allegory for the navy Seals, that's the truth. It may be stupid, it may make no sense, but the fact is that it's the intended message.

I think this only really goes so far. Lucas (or Anno) can say or do anything he wants, but it doesn't retroactively alter the original work as it was released.
View Original PostLucretius wrote:First, I should say a few words about authorship. In organized internet fandom, there is a tendency to talk about popular works as if they were not self-contained texts, but windows into an alternate universe to which the "author" or director has privileged access. Although, of course, everyone knows intellectually that this is not true, this way of thinking persists on in fan circles as if the past hundred years of literary theory had not happened. The very term "canon" suggests that suggests that the religious metaphor is in full force; NGE is not a sci-fi series, but a divinely received text whose meaning can only be determined by the author-God.

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Postby CJD » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:29 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:I think this only really goes so far. Lucas (or Anno) can say or do anything he wants, but it doesn't retroactively alter the original work as it was released.


Truthfully speaking, I'm not sure how I feel about that. If Anno came out and said "Eva's are actually 100% robotic, the blood and organic parts was a mistake, it's now not canon", I don't know what I'd do.

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Postby Xard » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:47 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:edit: damn topic is growing faster than I can respond!


Fundamentally the reason why I've dropped out of all religious debate threads sooner or later. You guys post too much and there are too many participators and it's pure chaos. This isn't even bad thread in comparison.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:To varying degree, yes, but only to the extent that it doesn't contradict the text itself.


If the text can mean pretty much anything (and it can under DotA) it's pretty hard to contradict the "text itself". One can read even stuff that "obviously happens" on-screen as hallucinations. Perhaps Shinji never got out of Eva-01 in ep 20 and rest of the series is his fantasy of how his life would've gone on if he had.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Meaning is only in the mind, but for it to be worth discussing it has to be somehow predicated on the framework of the text so that a common benchmark for comparison can be established. Just saying whatever the hell you want is pointless, but in the Smurf example there definately are parallels, unintentional or not, to be seen.


But if the "meaning" of the text is entirely subjective and only in people's minds I don't see why any comparisons and discussion would NOT be pointless as far as uncovering "truths" of the text are discussed; everyone is equally correct (regardless of their level of argumentation and just how well they can cite the text)


Interesting discussion, I guess but I'm getting kind of tired of it. What's even the point of this thread, anyway?
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:52 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Interesting discussion, I guess but I'm getting kind of tired of it. What's even the point of this thread, anyway?


Luc likes trolling and people were bored.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Xard » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:56 pm

Well, I'm bored again so might as well pull agreement here because I'm too lazy to continue

yeah NemZ, I agree with you :P
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:06 pm

View Original PostXard wrote: yeah NemZ, I agree with you :P


I'm tempted to sig that. :lol:
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Postby symbv » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:29 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Well, I'm bored again so might as well pull agreement here because I'm too lazy to continue

yeah NemZ, I agree with you :P


Xard finally lost the battle of attrition. Interestingly he was too bored to continue though one would think being bored provides more reason for pursuing pointless things like the current discussion :lol: 

Just a final word:
For DotA it is hard to say whether it is necessarily all subjective, because at the end those believe in DotA believe in the "objective" text.
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Postby Sun Stealer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:29 am

If my Fan-fu is correct, Anno never intended to convey that Misato killed Kaji in the first place. It was just fanwank to begin with. I think it was meant that just some nameless mook from Nerv, Seele, or the JDA was his killer.

Then they later retconned it, so that they gave a name and a full game centering around Kaji's Killer, Kyouya or something.
"Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You've read through this entire story so far. To recap, the story has featured Rei wondering if she has become a giant insect and considering wearing a Carmen Miranda hat, Kaji completely blowing off important duties, Shinji and Asuka blowing up a building downtown, Misato driving drunk and nearly killing Rei in a hit-and-run, Fuyutski fearing imminent death from a man dressed as a giant slice of pepperoni, Rei talking to a bagel, and Shinji and Asuka digging up an entire cemetery. And now it's character derailment. Okay."-Esselfortium
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Postby tomrule123 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:18 pm

View Original PostSun Stealer wrote:If my Fan-fu is correct, Anno never intended to convey that Misato killed Kaji in the first place. It was just fanwank to begin with. I think it was meant that just some nameless mook from Nerv, Seele, or the JDA was his killer.


Good god, this topic is still in discussion? ...and to think we would've clarified what really happened like what Sun Stealer had described.

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Postby Trajan » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:52 pm

I think this might have been a joke topic since the beginning, but since this is EGF...
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Postby chee » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:26 pm

For once I'm in agreement with NemZ here. People have so fundamentally misinterpreted DoA to mean a kind of anything-goes, textual nihilism, and this misinterpretation which is a diseased strain of lazy black-and-white thinking that's led to so many retarded strawman misapprehensions of so-called "post-modernism" (which is a term that outside the work of specific thinkers like Jameson and Lyotard, or in specific fields like architecture, is a non-word that ultimately signifies a grand total of jack and shit), that its led to a godawful racket of moronic, intellectual mudslinging. (like the IQ-destroying cacophony of retarded, jaundiced blithering and petty trolling that was the Sokal Affair, which ironically enough was basically the retarded grandfather of this thread)

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Postby Xard » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:07 am

View Original Postchee wrote:For once I'm in agreement with NemZ here. People have so fundamentally misinterpreted DoA to mean a kind of anything-goes, textual nihilism, and this misinterpretation which is a diseased strain of lazy black-and-white thinking that's led to so many retarded strawman misapprehensions of so-called "post-modernism" (which is a term that outside the work of specific thinkers like Jameson and Lyotard, or in specific fields like architecture, is a non-word that ultimately signifies a grand total of jack and shit), that its led to a godawful racket of moronic, intellectual mudslinging. (like the IQ-destroying cacophony of retarded, jaundiced blithering and petty trolling that was the Sokal Affair, which ironically enough was basically the retarded grandfather of this thread)


Well won't you define DoA here then? As far as you can base your interprepation on the source text it should be acceptable under DoA - at least I have no idea how you can reach any other conclusion from Barthes's text. But you seem to be the expert on the subject so please, go ahead

Secondly post-modernism being nigh-meaningless umbrella term is no news and has nothing to do with the subject. No one is discussing "post-modernism" overall here.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:34 am

Let me lay it all out clear as possible - for any message in any medium, there are basically 3 parts:

  1. The message as intent in the mind of the author
  2. The message as text given external existence (though it might be a movie, painting, song, etc rather than written words)
  3. The message as experience in the mind of the audience.
Classically the intent was seen as primary, the rest being rough transcriptions of the original thought behind it. This intent was enshrined in literary scholarship as a sort of divine revelation from the mind of genius-as-author, the holy of holies that cannot be entered directly by mere readers but whom should strive to penetrate with alternate means to gain as complete a picture of the one true message as possible. Alleluia!

DotA breaks this ridiculous situation apart by placing the emphasis on the text instead, the only piece of the puzzle that is accessible to all and that has an absolute existence outside of the whims of individual, subjective minds. This is preferable for the following reasons:

  1. A text can actually be the product of many authors and editors, each with their own intents that may conflict
  2. Authors don't always fully understand their intent or it's sources from their own unconsciousness and from the milieu of culture and history upon which they draw
  3. Authors aren't always successful in putting their intentions into a text
  4. Authors may intentionally obscure part or all of their intent
  5. Experiences are still valid even with they don't conform to the intent
  6. Experience may be much more interesting than the original intent, so much so that some authors might try and pretend this was intentional after-the-fact
  7. The author might purposefully make a text vague in the hopes that it will create different meaningful experiences in different audiences, none of which are really contained in the original intent.
  8. In many cases it is the conflict between experiences rather than the purity of the intent that makes a text worth studying in the first place
It is only because the text itself is treated as the fixed point about which all other facets of the message orbit that meaningful discussion is even possible. This is not to say that all experiences are equal, however; Those that contract the text should be discarded unless they can show that the text is itself in conflict. Of those that conform with the text, the more direct and indirect support for an experience there is within the text the more validity it carries.

It is precisely because of the text as fixed point that the author must be considered 'dead' to any finished work. An author may attempt to make revisions of a text to clarify intent, remove subconscious or merely unpopular elements of the the intent or to purposefully reject formerly valid experiences, but in so doing the text must be treated as a new work because it can no longer claim the same fixed point of reference as the original.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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Postby Xard » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:55 am

all fine points in general, of course. But you didn't provide new (for me) definition of "Death of the Author" concept as none of that conflicts with my understanding of the term. And chee seems to be implying I don't know what I'm talking about. If I'm wrong I'm glad to learn more so chee explaining what he means would be beneficial in any case.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:32 am

it would probably help if you clarified you understanding of the term then.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

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Postby Xard » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:35 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:it would probably help if you clarified you understanding of the term then.


uhh, I'm pretty sure I've done that enough times already during the course of this thread.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.


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