Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [1]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat May 21, 2011 1:27 pm

It was more of a general statement; I wasn't going to name names, but the people I addressed should know who they are.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat May 21, 2011 2:41 pm

Yes, I have worked in the industry. Yes, I still do work in the industry. No, I'm not afraid to admit the film I'm working on now has a deeply lousy script. (I didn't write it! Some bit-part-actor-turned-director did.)

And no, I didn't mean to hurt anyone on this board who differs from my opinion over something that is just a movie anyway. I hope you all can forgive me if you've felt offended by any of my remarks.

But I won't apologize for bringing up my experience in the industry when it comes to talking about movies. It's like asking a carpenter what he thinks about a particular house, extensive nit-picking over one scene will occur.

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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 9:09 am

I don't mind that Asuka got mindraped in this film. I really don't. Hell, it happens in the original series anyway so why not? However, if this is to be understood as Arael's 'replacement' in this continuity then it might actually be a boon to the character. In the series, after her encounter with the angel she's pretty much done. Tapped out. It kicked her while she was down and left her in pieces that didn't get put back together until her fight with the Eva Series (and we all know how that went).

But this time she was attacked while she was still on an emotional upswing. She was starting to give up on Shinji and all that (running away and walling up etc), but now she isn't pitting her skill as a pilot against the success of her relationships with others, like Soryu did. They seem to be distinct and separate goals at least in her understanding (might be self deception but whatever). So when Soryu "lost" in her eva, she also lost at some weird game against Shinji and therefore couldn't accept him. Shikinami doesn't seem to have this problem as much.

So basically she now has the time to pull out of the Bardiel incident and become as strong as she ever was. Stronger perhaps. This is something that NGE Asuka didn't even have a chance to do.

So I'm not put off by Bardiel choosing Asuka to invade. It was a little more annoying to see some dark horse clowning around in Unit02 during the climax, but that's more of a nit-pick.

But what actually really does bother me is not so much Asuka getting thrown in the trash 3/4 into the movie, it's that the other characters seem to just forget about her...and I guess we're expected to as well. The whole conversation where Misato tries to apologize to Shinji before he leaves everyone in the dust (uh, ah-hem, this would include Rei as well. He's basically abandoning her as the only remaining official pilot for Nerv and he doesn't care at all.) really encapsulates this. Misato kind of half-heartedly asks why Shinji hasn't asked how Asuka or Rei are doing. Well he still doesn't, but hold on folks. Asuka AND Rei? Last I checked Rei's just fine. Sure her big evening was ruined but uh, are we completely sure we want to lump these together? Then she goes on and she only starts to tear up when she describes how Rei was trying to get Shinji and his pep-pep to have dinner together. Alright, need to call another time out. Let's try to keep in mind that Asuka is currently a vegetable in the bottom of some secret lab where Ritsuko calls her a "specimen" and she may or may not be infested by space demons. But no, what gets Misato emotional is that Shinji didn't get to sit with his dad and Rei and make awkward conversation. I mean, I get that she's trying to get him to stay and to start talking about Asuka might make him crazy with guilt and run away more but come on.

The trouble with this is what happened to Asuka is so horrible that it distracts from what we're supposed to be experiencing with Shinji and the gang. How am I supposed to give a damn about Shinji and wrecked parties when some other character's been chewed on like bubblegum and stuck in some lab? Then it gets worse in that the ending comes and there's absolutely no closure for Asuka at all. Again, it's almost like the movie doesn't expect us to think about it. During the almost 3I they show all sorts of images of things blowing around and we even see Lilith just hanging out downstairs but then it's over. This is Rei and Shinji's moment, sure, but you can't afford one more look at Asuka in the basement too? Just so we know she's still around? Guess not.

The movie basically makes no bones about Asuka's secondary status in this film. Which is fine, really, but I don't see it as a formula that can hold for the rest of the films. Because I think what really stuck in the Asuka fans mind was the lack of closure. You can put the character through hardship all you want, but even in the show we get scenes of confirmation that she still exists. And that's what was insulting. It's like being in a group conversation and suddenly everyone just stops talking to you.

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Postby Warren Peace » Tue May 31, 2011 10:06 am

I don't get your demands for "closure" at what is the halfway point in this story. Asuka is infected somehow, she is alive but in isolation... that's all we need to know. Her role is done for now. Dealing with what's happened to her is the business of Q. Shinji and Rei are at the center of 2.0's ending, so of course you're going to focus on them. Why muddying things up with details about Asuka which won't be paid off until the next film?

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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 10:11 am

I don't see how a cut away shot would muddy anything up.

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Postby Warren Peace » Tue May 31, 2011 10:17 am

How do you mean? Cut away shot to what?

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Postby SaltyJoe » Tue May 31, 2011 10:33 am

As much as i agree with the sentiment that trying to play Shinji up as the victim (if that was Anno's intention) in the last segment of the movie is preposterous, showing a cut of Asuka lying in quarantine at the end of the movie would make little sense.

Cutting to Lilith is a sensible move. She/it was described as the Third Impact trigger in the first movie, so when T.I. kicks off without Lilith at the end of the 2.0, cutting back to her reminds the audience that there is more than one way to skin a cat: T.I. can be started without Lilith. Seele's scenario is not absolute (recall the conference between Seele and Gendo where they mention that the rebirth of Lilith is a key element in Seele's plans). Gendo has thrown it off, and, as pointed out by Kaji, retribution will follow. Cue Kaworu with the Lance.

Cutting to Asuka just wouldn't have any function at this point.

And besides, pretty much nothing was given closure. 2.0 ended on an everything's up in the air cliffhanger.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue May 31, 2011 11:31 am

Yeah, if he means a cut away to Asuka's "coffin", I don't get that either. "Hey, look! She's still there"? We know she's there. Besides, we're forgetting one important fact: Asuka is the movie's exclamation point. 2.0 leaves us with the promise that she's going to be back on her feet soon enough (and with a nifty eyepatch). That's the image that sends you out of the theater, that is meant to get you excited about Q.

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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 3:42 pm

For a movie that is the halfway point of the series, it's considered good form to remind everyone of the on-going plot lines. Every other character gets this throughout the 10th Angel fight: the school kids are shown in the bunker early on, Kaworu descends from the moon, Shinji and Rei are causing shit, Misato and Ritsuko are going "oh shit", Gendo and Fuyutsuki are going "just as planned", the bridge bunnies are horrified, Lilith is down in that basement, and Kaji and Mari are both talking about stuff and mentioning Seele.

A cut to Asuka's room, even if it's nothing more than the coffin and maybe something like the lights flickering out as the power surge of near-3I overwhelms headquarters, would thus remind everyone that Asuka's not done yet and show off more damage to the facility as a consequence of Shinji's actions. Not a terrible decision, and it takes up no more than a few seconds. It's a net-gain.


EDIT: Also, though I know you love reminding everyone about how much 2.0 isn't the full story, let me remind you that it is also a movie with a relatively standalone plot arc. Most of the material is introduced in this movie or is at a point in development where very little knowledge of 1.0 is actually required. Most of the stories also wrap up with the defeat of the 10th Angel. There are still ongoing plots, but the vast majority of the the story of 2.0 is done now, which means we CAN criticize the implementation of it.

And finally, let me reiterate the fact that no one has addressed the much larger issue: Asuka is completely ignored after a certain point, and the characters focus more on Rei's ruined social life than Asuka's horrible injuries. Would anyone care to refute the fact that the movie does this, or would the echo chamber prefer this particular sound wave completely ignored so that we can just give 2.0 the five stars you think it deserves instead of considering, even for a moment, that Anno is not an incarnation of Jesus and can, in fact, do wrong?
Last edited by Legendary on Tue May 31, 2011 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Xard » Tue May 31, 2011 3:48 pm

Asuka is done as far as second film is considered
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Postby Xous » Tue May 31, 2011 6:07 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:And finally, let me reiterate the fact that no one has addressed the much larger issue: Asuka is completely ignored after a certain point, and the characters focus more on Rei's ruined social life than Asuka's horrible injuries. Would anyone care to refute the fact that the movie does this, or would the echo chamber prefer this particular sound wave completely ignored so that we can just give 2.0 the five stars you think it deserves instead of considering, even for a moment, that Anno is not an incarnation of Jesus and can, in fact, do wrong?


I didn't feel their ignoring of Asuka for the rest of the film after the "she's a valuable specimen, they wouldn't dare" line was a bad thing. To me, the fact they established the fact Asuka wasn't going anywhere was all I needed to move on and focus on the other characters.

However, I definitely see where you're coming from and agree with the "they could have shown Asuka during Near Third Impact" statement - it definitely couldn't have hurt to add a scene of her status during the event. It does seem weird they'd give the viewer a "status update" of pretty much everyone/thing during Near Third Impact, but leave Asuka out.

Again, I just don't think excluding her for the rest of the film was necessarily a bad thing. Not really the best path they could have taken, but not the worst path, either. I guess I feel it had no beneficial or negative effects on the film.

Maybe if they hadn't shown Asuka in the preview for Q I'd have different feelings. I'd probably be sitting here wondering, "Wait, if all of this craziness is going on, what's happening to Asuka!?" So, maybe under those conditions establishing her condition during Near Third Impact would have been a must for me, and if they had left it out, I'd feel upset about them leaving out updates on Asuka after Ritsuko's line. But since that's not what happened... I guess I've got no room to comment on the matter. D:

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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 6:09 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Asuka is done as far as second film is considered


I would argue that simply on the basis that the Bardiel incident had (or should of had) an effect on his decisions in the final act of 2.0. He failed once, he won't this time. But this is done really vaguely. The pep talk is given by Mari and he sees Unit 02's blood on his hand (he's got Asuka's blood on his hands, get it? Hyuk-yuk.)

Her role as an active player is certainly done (being a vegetable and what have you), but the effects of who she is and what goes on around her are still in motion. But the movie kinda shrugs on this point. They focus so much on other things that it gets kind of wonky because we're not supposed to be reminded about Asuka but we're kind of required to to understand the motives.

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Tue May 31, 2011 6:23 pm

I hate to be "lambasted" by others by my somewhat harsh tone in what follows (feeling so-so at the moment, so apologies for my venting ahead of time), but in all honestly, cutting to Asuka during the Zeruel fight or something would've been not only a bit distracting but also needlessly indulgent


No one, I repeat, no one is forgetting that Asuka exists or is ignoring her existence, it's really the pure simple case of the last act of the film soooo overbooked and overstuffed with things as is, cutting to Asuka would've perhaps been cheap, haphazard, out of place and pointless pandering to the point where it could've come off as "oh hey hey hey, Asuka is still here everyone. hey hey hey."

you got so much other shit going on, a simple cut to that would've been oddly cheesy and over the top, much like when it cut to Lilith during a big sequence.

Not all viewers are ADD and need to be babied and constantly reminded that these people are here and exist. Sticking to the matters unfolding is all we need to see for now. 3.0 will definitely pick up on Asuka's mental anguish and inevitable recovery.
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 6:30 pm

Gasmask wrote:no one is forgetting that Asuka exists or is ignoring her existence



Brain wrote:Misato kind of half-heartedly asks why Shinji hasn't asked how Asuka or Rei are doing. Well he still doesn't, but hold on folks. Asuka AND Rei? Last I checked Rei's just fine. Sure her big evening was ruined but uh, are we completely sure we want to lump these together? Then she goes on and she only starts to tear up when she describes how Rei was trying to get Shinji and his pep-pep to have dinner together. Alright, need to call another time out. Let's try to keep in mind that Asuka is currently a vegetable in the bottom of some secret lab where Ritsuko calls her a "specimen" and she may or may not be infested by space demons. But no, what gets Misato emotional is that Shinji didn't get to sit with his dad and Rei and make awkward conversation. I mean, I get that she's trying to get him to stay and to start talking about Asuka might make him crazy with guilt and run away more but come on.


Then what is this about?

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Postby Shogo-Kun » Tue May 31, 2011 6:31 pm

+1 to what GasmaskAvenger said. And it ties back to what Anno said about "not giving answers" and "don't expect to be cartered to all the time."
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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Tue May 31, 2011 6:34 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:Then what is this about?

all I can really think of is that the severity of Asuka's damage is unknown to Misato

she probably thinks she's just in a hospital or something, not being kept in a secret lab with a mask on.


yes i'm fanwanking but it's possible. doesn't help that the film is extremely scattershot and jumbled.
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 6:39 pm

That. Makes. No. Sense.

Rei had her day ruined. Boo fricking hoo. Asuka has been hospitalized. That's obvious. No matter what Misato doesn't know, that's the only fecking conclusion you can make out of her NOT BEING THERE any more. One girl can RESCHEDULE her stupid little party. The other needs medical attention. There is no reason to feel bad for Rei right now. Just Asuka.

Also, Maya knows. MAYA. If Maya knows and Misato doesn't, something is wrong.
Last edited by Legendary on Tue May 31, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Tue May 31, 2011 6:43 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:One girl can RESCHEDULE her stupid little party.

if this was real life, another movie or something, yes they could've rescheduled the party

but for dramatic effect, rescheduling it would seem fairly anticlimatic and defeat any tension
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Postby Shogo-Kun » Tue May 31, 2011 6:45 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:That. Makes. No. Sense.

Rei had her day ruined. Boo fricking hoo. Asuka has been hospitalized. That's obvious. No matter what Misato doesn't know, that's the only fecking conclusion you can make out of her NOT BEING THERE any more. One girl can RESCHEDULE her stupid little party. The other needs medical attention. There is no reason to feel worse for Rei than Asuka at this time.

Also, Maya knows. MAYA. If Maya knows and Misato doesn't, something is wrong.

You realize that EVA is filled with Poor Communication Kills, right?
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 6:45 pm

And when a story is made such that the characters are too wrapped up in melodrama to understand that one character has a minor problem and one has a major one, then that story is a bad one because it does not reflect real life properly.


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