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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 02, 2011 6:53 am

View Original Postgwern wrote:There's a fine line between decency & restraint - and pathological cowardice.


Most of this is Asuka's perception of him. I wouldn't call someone who charges into a big red dildo thing with nothing but a knife and keeps going after said thing pierces his stomach a coward. While there IS some truth in the fact that he comes to her as a last resort (as well as in Asuka's claim that he just can't decide which chick he wants) I would say that his feelings are honest - which is the reason he gives for undoing instrumentality, btw. Also, he had the hots to her before everyone else sunk into depression or died.

Also, you can't blame a 14 year old for fantasizing about a hot chick in close proximity, expecially if said hot chick always keeps pushing her boobs into his face, but never lets him touch them. Of course, doing it next to her hospital bed is... very not good, but the "bad"/disgusting part is just that. If he'd gotten a room, he would've done nothing different from what lots of ppl of his age do regularily. In fact, one can asume that he was jerking off to Asuka, Misato and Rei all the time in his little room, we just didn't get to see it cuz it's not that interesting. The EoE bit is interesting because it's disturbing... because Asuka was right next to him. He didn't even uncover her on purpose.
You're certainly not implying he's a coward for not raping her, are you?

And for the "holding" part, maybe it would really help if Asuka didn't constantly act like she hates his guts.
He probably though he'd get a slap/kick in the face if he as much as touched her.
And if he'd had more of a "spine"?
Well, then he wouldn't have agreed to be used as experimentation material/for boredom in the first place.
He was still trying his best to be nice to her until episode 22... then she dissapeared off the map and wasn't found until she was comatose.
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Postby Someone » Mon May 02, 2011 8:13 am

I just think that Shinji went insane. :dunce:
DISCLAIMER: The above statement might or might not be serious.

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Postby gwern » Mon May 02, 2011 8:32 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:You're certainly not implying he's a coward for not raping her, are you?


I'm not implying it; Anno is.

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Postby symbv » Mon May 02, 2011 9:15 am

^ Huh??!!
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But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
now here I am.
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Postby BornIn1142 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:36 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Most of this is Asuka's perception of him. I wouldn't call someone who charges into a big red dildo thing with nothing but a knife and keeps going after said thing pierces his stomach a coward.


I'm not saying I think Shinji is a coward, but that was clearly as "cornered rat" situation.
"I'm afraid you can't create tragedy out of abnormal psychology." - Andrew Sarris.

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Postby Xard » Mon May 02, 2011 12:07 pm

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:I'm not saying I think Shinji is a coward


but he is! by his own admission!
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 02, 2011 3:34 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:but he is! by his own admission!


He thinks he is one.
Yet, there were so many situations in which he could just have packed his things and left...
That he depreciates himself more than he should is sort of the point of him and also pretty much the focus of EoTV.

As for the Shamshel thing, he could just have retreated - in fact, he was ordered to.

And IMHO the fact that he didn't touch Asuka (He even, uh... made sure to release the, uh, results onto his hand...) was, bizarely, a sign that he was still redeemable.
Touching her would've been the ultimate moral event horizon, I think. Would anyone here have forgiven him that? Seriously?
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Postby Azathoth » Mon May 02, 2011 3:53 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Yet, there were so many situations in which he could just have packed his things and left...


But he did do that. Twice.

Shinji is a coward for most of the series and EoE, and when he does shake off his complex of "I'm just going to try to get away from everything I don't like by physically relocating" it's often simply trading it for "I'm just going to try to get away from everything I don't like by getting my ass killed". There's bravery in his character, but I would join Misato in saying that he doesn't display it in the Shamshel battle.
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 02, 2011 4:30 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:But he did do that. Twice.


He TRIED to, but stayed in the end. Also, the second instance is more related to being pissed/naive(which are, of course, also flaws, but different ones) than cowardice of any sort.
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Postby symbv » Mon May 02, 2011 7:19 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:He thinks he is one.


This is a very key point. The fact that he thought he was a coward and whether he was really a coward are totally different things. His lack of confidence clearly was a factor in how he evaluated himself in courage and braveness.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And IMHO the fact that he didn't touch Asuka (He even, uh... made sure to release the, uh, results onto his hand...) was, bizarely, a sign that he was still redeemable.


To be honest, Anno was trying to troll everyone on that scene. He could not do it on TV so he did it in the movie. At least it proved a certain lust from Shinji towards Asuka which could be a twisted manifestation of his feeling towards Asuka.
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Postby Xard » Tue May 03, 2011 2:20 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:He thinks he is one.


And is entirely correct for most part. He starts to grow up after ep 19 but then relapses hard in EoE reaching worse than ever state.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And IMHO the fact that he didn't touch Asuka (He even, uh... made sure to release the, uh, results onto his hand...) was, bizarely, a sign that he was still redeemable.
Touching her would've been the ultimate moral event horizon, I think. Would anyone here have forgiven him that? Seriously?


It doesn't look like Anno agrees. Going by his ramble that got the "kimochi warui" out of Miyamura it was not that Shinji had any such restrictions, he was just a too much a coward/weakling to actually do anything more direct. :hohum:
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby BornIn1142 » Tue May 03, 2011 4:37 am

I don't really think that the indication that "he could have raped [her]" automatically translates to him wanting to do it but not daring.
"I'm afraid you can't create tragedy out of abnormal psychology." - Andrew Sarris.

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Postby Xard » Tue May 03, 2011 4:39 am

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:I don't really think that the indication that "he could have raped [her]" automatically translates to him wanting to do it but not daring.


The way Anno worded the whole thing was about rapist with capability to rape the girl but who is so "impotent" (not literally :P) that instead he just masturbates
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby symbv » Tue May 03, 2011 5:38 am

View Original PostXard wrote:The way Anno worded the whole thing was about rapist with capability to rape the girl but who is so "impotent" (not literally :P) that instead he just masturbates


I want to see the original Japanese as spoken by Anno on this matter.
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Postby Ornette » Tue May 03, 2011 6:27 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:I want to see the original Japanese as spoken by Anno on this matter.

This is probably as close as you'll get: http://replay.web.archive.org/20050413002420/http://www.geocities.jp/animeyawa/eva.html

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link between kimochi warui and the masturbation scene

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Postby symbv » Tue May 03, 2011 6:51 am

OK, then that "impotent" thing that Xard and others mentioned was more imagined or made up then. Because in the Japanese interview, Miyamura said that no matter how many times she tried she could not get the approval nod from Anno for the last phrase "kimochi warui" and she even needed to stay behind to redo it (many times). And Ogata (who voiced Shinji) also felt obliged to stay with Miyamura because Shinji was also there when Asuka spoke the last phrase. They came almost to trying to strangle each other to get the satisfactory "kimochi warui" (lol). But finally Anno gave this advice:

「もし宮村が寝てて部屋で、自分の部屋で一人寝てて、窓から知らない男が入ってきて、それに気づかずに寝てて、いつでも襲われるような状況だったにも関わらず、襲われないで、私の寝てるところを見ながら、あのさっきのシンジのシーンじゃないですけど、自分でオナニーされたと、それをされたときに目が覚めたらなんていう?」

Translation:

If in the room where Miyamura was sleeping, when you were sleeping by yourself in your own room, through the window came a man whom you did not know. And moreover you still did not notice it and kept sleeping, and although it was a situation where you could be attacked at any moment, you were not attacked. He just looked at where I was sleeping, and although it was not really the scene of Shinji just before, he masturbated and when he was done you woke up. How about that?


First Anno was making a hypothetical situation to get Miyamura to say the last phrase with the right mood, but he clearly stated that the situation was not the same as the EoE scene. (and of course Asuka knew Shinji already too, unlike the hypothetical situation)

Second Anno did not stress that the man was impotent or anything about whether the man should be considered coward or not. He was trying to describe the situation more as a creepy one than a scary one, so he wanted to make clear that there was no attack happened. Because otherwise (if attack really happened) the mood for saying "kimochi warui" would be very different. It was about seeing a creepy man sneaking in your room and masturbating while looking at you sleeping. The reflex disgust should be the basis for that "kimochi warui". But of course we all know that that phrase is now interpreted on a lot more angles and levels too.
Last edited by symbv on Fri May 20, 2011 1:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 03, 2011 7:06 am

Thanks a lot. You make very useful contributions, as always.

I guess this is more about the way Asuka personally percieved the thing so that Miyamura could get her lines right... The anecdote that has been circulating so far is somewhat far from the truth...


And about the Shamshel thing - While it shows that our Shinji-boy still has to learn about responsibility, it was an act of facing one's fear - I think Shinji himself did not really know why he did that, tough I'd say that proving to Touji that he is no asshole played a part...
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Re: link between kimochi warui and the masturbation scene

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Postby katastroff » Tue May 03, 2011 8:51 am

I've read that quote before as well. I think Anno's "rape, but not" hypothetical is supposed to be how he feels the audience will perceive the last scene. He's probably anticipating the viewer to see Shinji as the troubled perpetrator that hesitates from our expectations, while both Asuka and the viewer are left to respond to his curious behavior.

It seems like Anno had to settle for "kimochi warui" even though he didn't want to, saying "I thought as much."

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Postby BornIn1142 » Tue May 03, 2011 8:58 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And about the Shamshel thing - While it shows that our Shinji-boy still has to learn about responsibility, it was an act of facing one's fear - I think Shinji himself did not really know why he did that, tough I'd say that proving to Touji that he is no asshole played a part...


I myself don't think he was concerned about Toji's and Kensuke's impressions at the time at all. If he wanted to seem tough, he wouldn't have wept so openly afterward.
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the last phrase by Asuka

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Postby symbv » Tue May 03, 2011 9:01 am

Also, the original draft for Asuka's last phrase was あんたなんかに殺されるのは真っ平よ (Translation: "I would never want to be killed by YOU")

Although it was changed to Kimochi Warui later, the idea is that Asuka did not really want to die, and in particularly not by hand of Shinji of all people.

Some people's theory that Asuka wanted to die and Shinji would not finish the job was really befuddling and weird to me....
I never thought I would come back to Evangelion after EoE,
But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
now here I am.
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