Angels making contact with Adam

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:06 pm

+1 Monk Ed. Excellent post. :nod: (So does this mean you agree with the theory that Kaworu's "Adam? No, it's Lilith!" line is him "acting"/dropping a hint to Rei about things?)
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:27 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:+1 Monk Ed. Excellent post. :nod:

:grin:

(So does this mean you agree with the theory that Kaworu's "Adam? No, it's Lilith!" line is him "acting"/dropping a hint to Rei about things?)

Actually, I always thought that the Casablanca theory was entirely predicated on the assumption I just debunked. My own opinion -- which is beyond the scope of this particular topic -- is that Kaworu was expecting to find a genuine fully-grown "Adam" of some kind in TD, just as he appears to. It makes more sense to me to work backwards from that, than to try to reason around the pieces of evidence we are blatantly given so as to be able to continue to hold on to certain assumptions.

To illustrate this in practice, the fact that Kaworu seems to have been expecting to find "Adam" in TD illustrates to me that whatever he thought he was going to find, such as some kind of clone, it was essentially equivalent to his original body.

Maybe he thought so because it lacked a soul: Ritsuko said in an earlier episode that the Evas are "not just copies of Adam", because they are imbued with a human soul. By implication, what does that make an Eva that has no human soul in it? Apparently, "just a copy of Adam". Kaworu even makes a point of telling us that he can't enter an Eva -- a clone of his own body -- if there is already a soul inside. He does refer to those as his "children", but they seem to only count as his "children" if they have souls of their own, as indicated by Kaworu's Good End in NGE2 (wherein he takes his "children" -- the souls within the Evas, not the Evas themselves -- with him off to wherever). So if the body does not have a soul attached, apparently he thinks of it as himself, whereas if it does, he thinks of it as one of his children.

In a way, this is like how mothers must think of their own children, right? A baby is born from mother's flesh, but she does not think of it as an extension of her own body but instead as a separate entity, because it has its own "soul". I guess Kaworu sees his fleshly derivatives the same way: Got a separate soul? You're my child! Don't got a separate soul? You're me!

This is just one possibility off the top of my head, though, I haven't considered it quite as deeply.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:26 pm

It's all a gigantic mess, basically. Only Anno knows what the hell is going on here, and even then it seems more likely it's all just a handwave.

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...but as long as this is what we're doing I might as well play too.

Kaworu has Adam's soul, but he's not Adam. Personally I think he's actually a unique angel in his own right that just happens to be ALSO carrying the dormant Adam around with him. He probably wants to just hijak a big lump of PWM and become a proper angel/seed, and I fanwank that he'd end up looking like the Diemay angel, thus the Harpies are sort of eva halfbreeds of his intended form.

I think Kaji was under the impression that Lilith was actually a PWM clone of Adam in progress, meant to be implanted with that sample he stole when the time is right to become the new Adam. He just isn't privy to all the Rei/Kaworu soul-swapping shenanigans involved, thus his mistaken assumption while still being kinda right.

The angels each have their own goals. They could be looking for Adam, Lilith, the evas, or maybe the pilots themselves, and what they actually plan to accomplish is anyone's guess. so here, have some more wild speculation about the other angels' motivations

Sachiel: Mommy?
Shamshel: You killed my boyfriend, jerk!
Ramiel: Stop bothering me, I just want to know what's down there!
Gaghiel: If I eat the mommy can I become the mommy?
Israfel: We were actually going to help you until you decided to drop a nuke in our faces.
Sandalphon: Can I just be born in peace? Please?
Matarael: Ooh, a great big hidey-hole! WANT.
Sahaquiel: Adam Akbar!
Iruel: I'm n ur base, browsin ur pr0n.
Liliel: When I have absorbed all I shall be all, and thus nothing. Ohm.
Bardiel: Wheeee! Piloting these eva things is fun!
Zeruel: Some angels just want to watch the world burn
Arael: So, got any juicy gossip?
Armisael: I miss my friends. Give them back!
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:45 pm

:hitthetable: Can we have a feature to give out Internet medals? NemZ's post was awesome (and made excellent points) in its own right.

The idea of Kaworu being a unique Angel on his own is an interesting one but I'm not sure what to think about that. I mean, he's Adam yet not, still his own being, similar to Rei being Lilith but not (if that makes sense).

You do make good points that Kaji was half-right, I think.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:58 pm

@NemZ: :hitthetable:

What makes me shy away from the idea that Kaworu was his own separate Angel with a separate soul is, among other things, that the CI says that "Because the Evas are a part of Kaworu's own body, he can manipulate them freely." Evas are made from Adam, which means that Kaworu's "own body" being referred to here is in fact that of Adam. The CI also says that Adam's soul was recovered and incarnated -- not implanted, such as into another pre-existing whole being with its own soul, but incarnated.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:50 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:I don't get this continued attachment to this idea that the Adam embryo was in any way useful to the Angels. I totally understand that a union of an Angel with a fully grown Adam might have been trouble, but there's so much that suggests that the embryo was no threat in anyone's (or thing's) hands but Gendo's
I rather like this post as well. I seem to recall this issue being bandied about in the ep. 24 plothole thread but, then again, what related issue WASN'T discussed? I have no idea if you're theory was explicitly mentioned (I doubt it was as well reasoned). The only thing that bothers me about this idea is that it still relies on a certain amount of fanwank. Kaworu is told where his body is, yet we're supposed to assume that he thinks his bigger better body is actually somewhere else? Although, I remember proposing (or, at least, endorsing; it's hard to remember) the idea that Kaworu, like the other Angels, simply "sense" this giant presence down in TD and are thus trying to get there and likely aren't able to distinguish between it being Adam or Lilith. A similar argument could be made as to why they gravitate towards the Evas (made from the same body, afterall).

If my SOL-body-needed-for-3I theory is right, then it actually makes sense the Adam embryo wouldn't be of use. I think the Adam embryo is likely just an S2, which explains why Gendo could use that plus Kaworu's soul plus Lilith to engage in his version of 3I. The Angels have S2s, but they don't have a SOL body to trigger 3I, hence they're more typical attraction to Lilith.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Sachiel: Mommy?
Shamshel: You killed my boyfriend, jerk!
Ramiel: Stop bothering me, I just want to know what's down there!
Gaghiel: If I eat the mommy can I become the mommy?
Israfel: We were actually going to help you until you decided to drop a nuke in our faces.
Sandalphon: Can I just be born in peace? Please?
Matarael: Ooh, a great big hidey-hole! WANT.
Sahaquiel: Adam Akbar!
Iruel: I'm n ur base, browsin ur pr0n.
Liliel: When I have absorbed all I shall be all, and thus nothing. Ohm.
Bardiel: Wheeee! Piloting these eva things is fun!
Zeruel: Some angels just want to watch the world burn
Arael: So, got any juicy gossip?
Armisael: I miss my friends. Give them back!
:hitthetable:

This deserves a permanent place on EGF SOMEWHERE!
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Postby AshPhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:19 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:This deserves a permanent place on EGF SOMEWHERE!

As long as this thread, the Internet, and the Earth exist, it will be all right. The explanation of Angel motivation may be lonely, but it will exist forever, archived somewhere in the immense list of threads...then, perhaps, one day, that particular statement may be quoted, and a sign that such a thing existed won't be forgotten.
Last edited by AshPhoenix on Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:09 pm

That needs to be eternally saved too.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:42 pm

Anybody with a Wiki account has the power to do such things.

I'll leave this privilege for someone else.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:45 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Anybody with a Wiki account has the power to do such things.
Wait... there's a place for forum quotes? Man, I've been out of the loop too long...
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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:51 pm

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:Wait... there's a place for forum quotes? Man, I've been out of the loop too long...

Wikis are a versatile however annoying tool. If something you want is not there, it can be put there. Preferably by someone who doesn't contribute to it very much (= 95% or more of forum users). [/unnecessary passive-aggressiveness] If you unsure if it is appropriate, there is also a place to ask, deshou ne~.
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Postby thewayneiac » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:29 pm

It seems I lost track of this thread just when it was getting interesting.

@Monk Ed: If the embryo was of no use to the Angels, why were some of them trying to recover it? General principle?

@NemZ: I think you are overstating your "Kaworu is his own Angel" theory. Rather than Kaworu is not Adam, the actual truth is Kaworu is no longer Adam. He has become Kaworu due to his relations with the people around him. Just as Rei is now Lilith's true identity.
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Postby Grimmjow » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:41 pm

That's one of those questions that's really tough to answer, as there is no easy conclusion. We don't even know what would happen should the Angels join with Lilith, or if they even could join with Lilith.

We know that if the Angels are to become one with Adam, all humanity would be destroyed. However, whether the Angels really could create that big of a bang with nothing but the Adam embryo is another matter entirely. One could actually look at the entire War with the Angels as just Seele's diversion to destroy all the Angels, so there will be nothing in their way once they bring about their form of TI.

Kaworu makes it seem like he could end the world if he joined with Lilith, but it's really impossible to say. The metaphysics of Evangelion are a messy business indeed.

It's always been my opinion that the Angels are just attracted to any Seed of Life. They can't tell the difference between Adam or Lilith. They're just like wandering blind children who want to find their mommy.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:13 pm

View Original PostGrimmjow wrote:We don't even know what would happen should the Angels join with Lilith, or if they even could join with Lilith.

It can happen in NGE2 -- though the scenario has limited usefulness for our purposes, since Rei ALWAYS shows up out of nowhere to go into Lilith with the Angel (even if Eva-00 was pwnd in the battle you just lost, and Rei ought to be unconscious in the plug, not hanging out in Terminal Dogma buck-naked). NGE2 can go bugger itself for robbing me of a Rei-less Angel-instigated 3I.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:44 am

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:@Monk Ed: If the embryo was of no use to the Angels, why were some of them trying to recover it? General principle?

Other posters have summed it up as: "Mommy?" (As in, seeking mommy, and they seem to be mistaking Lilith for "mommy" too if Kaworu is any indication.)

Reichu's mentioning of NGE2 just made me think of something, though. What if all the Seeds are even more physically interchangeable than we thought?

What I mean is... Perhaps all the Seeds are built from the same template, with a design that is capable of incorporating either kind of Fruit, and then installed with either a Fruit of Wisdom or a Fruit of Life.

It explains the following:

1) Why Evas are born without S2s -- the S2 is no more innate to Adam than it is to Lilith. Same thing with the core, probably.

2) Why the Angels would mistake Lilith for Adam.

3) Why the Angels would be able to merge with Lilith while thinking her to be Adam, which implies that they'd be able to merge with (a fully grown) Adam in the same way just as Kaji warned in ep 19.

4) Why Eva-01, a clone of Lilith, looks like all the other Evas and not like the fat white blob in TD. Perhaps all Seeds, in their "natural state", look alike, and differences in appearance between Evas, Adam, and Lilith could be explained by the many modifications that humans applied to every single one of them. And yea, those modifications, they are many -- many enough that we can have both Harpies and Eva-02 look as different as they do while somehow still being clones of the same thing.

5) Why Eva-01 was grown directly from Lilith's body rather than "cloned" like the other Evas: possibly so as to transfer the Fruit of Wisdom, which, like the Fruit of Life, would not be innate to either Seed. Had Eva-01 been grown from a scrap like the others presumably were, she'd lack any Fruit at all. This one is major conjecture, I understand -- I just saw a hole and thought I'd try to fill it on my way by.

6) Why Eva-01 becomes so important to Seele after they lose Lilith: because Eva-01 possesses both the Fruit of Wisdom and Life, whereas all other Evas have only the Fruit of Life at best. (What I mean to emphasize here is that if they had found some way to simply "install" a Fruit of Wisdom to any old Eva the same way an S2 can be, then perhaps Eva-01 would not have been so important.)

This all sort of came out at once, but I think it's a starting point of ... something.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:32 am

@Monk Ed: I've been leaning toward the "Seeds all start out basically the same" idea for a while, myself, so I'm in agreement with much of what you just said. (I still feel some kind of weird romantic attraction to my old "Lilith as surrogate womb" idea, but it's nice to have a workable alternative that isn't as "lolreichu".) Some comments off the top of my head:

Why Evas are born without S2s -- the S2 is no more innate to Adam than it is to Lilith. Neither is the core, probably.

I'm not sure about the core. First of all, how do the Angels go about growing them spontaneously, whereas the Evas apparently don't? Is proper core development perhaps contingent upon a soul being present during the growth of the body?

Another thing I've noticed that I can't seem to ignore:

http://www.evacommentary.org/images_production/groundwork_13_C022.gif
http://www.evageeks.org/images/screens/blink/groundworkm2_083_core-birth.png

Putting aside the fact that the objects of interest are up too high in both images, notice how the orbs on the simulation body are in the same configuration as Eva-01's core + four core-lets. If this is a coincidence, it's a rather peculiar one.

Why Eva-01 was grown directly from Lilith's body rather than "cloned" like the other Evas: possibly so as to transfer the Fruit of Wisdom,

Which makes me wonder: How do the Lilin get the Fruit of Knowledge? We're not literally born from Lilith's flesh, yet we somehow have it and can pass it from one generation to the next, implying that Lilith's flesh is not the fundamental mode of transmission. I could go on, but this whole issue makes my brain want to explode.

differences in appearance between Evas, Adam, and Lilith could be explained by the many modifications that humans applied to every single one of them. And yea, those modifications, they are many -- many enough that we can have both Harpies and Eva-02 look as different as they do while somehow still being clones of Adam.

What kinds of "modifications" are you referring to? In NGE, we know that forms can be determined by biology (genes) or by ATF manipulation. The Evas' forms are already determined by the time they have souls (hence ATFs), which implies that they are biologically determined, but this also sends us right back to the whole "how the hell can they be clones?" thing. Well, maybe you have something up your sleeve that I haven't thought of.

All of the human tinkering with counterfeit gods never reproduced Lilith's utterly bizarre physiology, so in her case I'm inclined to think that something else is responsible. My own persistent wank for Lilith's weird appearance is that it's some side-effect of becoming an "LCL gate".

And Adam... well, aside from being impossibly skinny and appearing to have a number of artificial additions, she looks pretty much like the Evas, so I've figured that Adam sans restraints is pretty much "default Seed form". (And along the lines of what the FAR probably looked like, for that matter.)

Okay, that wasn't coherent at all, but maybe it's a little more something.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:08 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Perhaps all the Seeds are built from the same template, with a design that is capable of incorporating either kind of Fruit, and then installed with either a Fruit of Wisdom or a Fruit of Life.
It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure how all of your other points follow from it. I think it makes more sense to think that SOL are just hunks of PWM until they're given a soul and then either the FoK or FoL, and I'm not so sure that FoK simply isn't the absence of the FoK (ie, FoK is something that's gained over time because the race can't rely on the power of the S2).

As to your points:

1. Makes sense, but then why would Adam's Angel children be born with S2s?

2. I've often thought that there's something unique about SoL PWM that is distinguishable from others, hence why the Angels are mostly drawn to Lilith without knowing it's Lilith. It would also explain why Kaworu went down to TD even though he'd been told where his "body" was. If he sensed a SoL in TD, he would naturally be drawn to there.

3. It fits.

4. I'm not sure I follow here. I guess it's possible that all beings cloned from PWM could essentially be the same and the differences are simply those that are post-engineered. But I've often said that Lilith-as-white-blob isn't necessarily the same as Lilith-with-soul. It's not as if all the Angels were the spitting image of Adam either. I guess my point is that there's more to what gives these beings their form than parenthood. Reichu mentions that form CAN be determined by biology, but how do we know that the form wasn't manipulated during the cloning process to take a certain form?

5. I'm not sure I'm with you here, perhaps because I've usually equated the FoK with consciousness rather than something innate in the Seeds or Evas. I think the reason they cloned 01 from Lilith was because they needed a connection to The Black Moon for Instrumentality. Without Lilith's (therefor, 01's) connection to the Black Moon, Instrumentality couldn't happen.

6. I think that's also explained by her connection to the Black Moon. I don't think any FoK was needed for 3I. In fact, Seele didn't seem very happy that 01 possessed both it and an S2/FoL. It seems they much preferred having the S2 housed in unconscious beings they could control, and equally have the FoK housed in a being where that conscious autonomy was suppressed. Yui's combination of consciousness and S2 is what made her so dangerous.
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Reichu
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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:52 am

Jimbo: I've stated a number of times that I think the "PWM" idea has to be revisited badly, so I'm a bit wary of the reckless abandon with which you fling it around here. The idea is based on barely anything in the original show as is, and doesn't even take all of the available data into account (c.f. blood types / patterns; Replica Spears being composed of LCL). "PWM" has basically devolved into a convenient fanwank device.

But I've often said that Lilith-as-white-blob isn't necessarily the same as Lilith-with-soul.

Don't make me post that image of Eva01-and-Lilith-connected again, son.

It's not as if all the Angels were the spitting image of Adam either.

The only one we see in native humanoid form was still a fetus (albeit a really huge one...). If the Angels never "rejected human form", they'd probably look much the same as Adam.

Reichu mentions that form CAN be determined by biology, but how do we know that the form wasn't manipulated during the cloning process to take a certain form?

Well, either you manipulate the DNA before you grow it, or, I suppose, attempt to manipulate the organism with growth hormones and stuff WHILE it's growing. Latter method has the advantage of avoiding the "it's not a clone if you alter the DNA!" problem, though I have some doubts if it would be capable of reasonably inducing changes as extreme as e.g. permanently altering blood composition...
Last edited by Reichu on Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:53 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure how all of your other points follow from it. I think it makes more sense to think that SOL are just hunks of PWM until they're given a soul and then either the FoK or FoL, and I'm not so sure that FoK simply isn't the absence of the FoK (ie, FoK is something that's gained over time because the race can't rely on the power of the S2).

Oh, hm. Interesting.

Wait, but if the FoK comes from the soul inside, then why would Eva-01 have a Fruit of Knowledge whereas no other Eva does? (And we know this because none of the other Evas which get S2s installed give Seele any conniptions.)

1. Makes sense, but then why would Adam's Angel children be born with S2s?

Are they? The only Angel we see getting "born" comes in a ready-made package.

2. I've often thought that there's something unique about SoL PWM that is distinguishable from others, hence why the Angels are mostly drawn to Lilith without knowing it's Lilith. It would also explain why Kaworu went down to TD even though he'd been told where his "body" was. If he sensed a SoL in TD, he would naturally be drawn to there.

Yes. But I don't understand why you bring up PWM so often. That's like saying "I've often thought that there's something unique about the protons, neutrons, and electrons that constitute water that makes it distinguishable from others, hence why thirsty deer are drawn to rivers." Arrangement, in just about everything in life, is a lot more important than mere composition.

4. I'm not sure I follow here. I guess it's possible that all beings cloned from PWM could essentially be the same and the differences are simply those that are post-engineered. But I've often said that Lilith-as-white-blob isn't necessarily the same as Lilith-with-soul. It's not as if all the Angels were the spitting image of Adam either. I guess my point is that there's more to what gives these beings their form than parenthood. Reichu mentions that form CAN be determined by biology, but how do we know that the form wasn't manipulated during the cloning process to take a certain form?

I'm not seeing what the disagreement is here. I read this and all I see is you repeating back to me what I said in your own words. Well, the part after "I guess my point is" at least. Dunno about that Lilith-as-white-blob stuff -- as Reichu mentions above what with the pic of Eva-01 connected to Lilith.

5. I'm not sure I'm with you here, perhaps because I've usually equated the FoK with consciousness rather than something innate in the Seeds or Evas. I think the reason they cloned 01 from Lilith was because they needed a connection to The Black Moon for Instrumentality. Without Lilith's (therefor, 01's) connection to the Black Moon, Instrumentality couldn't happen.

That point was extremely lazy conjecture on my part, and extremely tangential to the main thrust. I just saw a hole and thought I'd try to fill it on my way by. I guess I put in the wrong kind of dirt :-X

6. I think that's also explained by her connection to the Black Moon. I don't think any FoK was needed for 3I. In fact, Seele didn't seem very happy that 01 possessed both it and an S2/FoL. It seems they much preferred having the S2 housed in unconscious beings they could control, and equally have the FoK housed in a being where that conscious autonomy was suppressed. Yui's combination of consciousness and S2 is what made her so dangerous.

This one was another case of trying to fill a hole on the way by :-X. I completely forgot for a moment there about how much Seele seemed to hate the idea of combining FoK with FoL.

Reichu wrote:I've stated a number of times that I think the "PWM" idea has to be revisited badly, so I'm a bit wary of the reckless abandon with which you fling it around here. The idea is based on barely anything in the original show as is, and doesn't even take all of the available data into account (c.f. blood types / patterns; Replica Spears being composed of LCL). "PWM" has basically devolved into a convenient fanwank device.

My theory that PWM is a construct analogous to human flesh the both of which can exist independently of the active presence of a soul will withstand the test of time! I JUST KNOW IT! :evillaugh:
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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:11 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:My theory that PWM is a construct analogous to human flesh the both of which can exist independently of the active presence of a soul will withstand the test of time! I JUST KNOW IT! :evillaugh:

Have you described this anywhere?

And, that's all the response I get? Puff...
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