_ SHE
x IT

The pronoun controversy should be explained somewhere, though. Perhaps the old Gender page should be retooled a bit, so that it would answer any newbie questions like this:

Q: I've been reading the forum archives, and I've encountered some pretty strange pronoun usages, like some people calling Ramiel a "she". Do the Angels have genders? And what is this strange pronoun "ve"?

In other words, one page could serve as "gender bullshit central".

_ SHE
X IT

Going by the "bipolar" voting system, it's currently 0:4 (including me). I think I have "a pretty good idea" of what the outcome will be, but it's not over until it's over. Cast your ballot today! For great justice!

Dr. Nick wrote:The pronoun controversy should be explained somewhere, though. Perhaps the old Gender page should be retooled a bit

Good idea, though it would probably be best to keep to keep the retarded Angel "M/F/O?" stuff separate and make its semi-satirical nature more obvious -- I've seen one too many newbies fall prey to it (= take it 100% serious) over the years. So basically, we'd have:

(1) A page addressing this whole "sex/gender/wtf?" mess in a semi-serious manner. Would serve as a basic primer on the issues concerning Evas, Seeds, and Angels and how fans may or may not regard them, without going too deep into some of the fanfaggotry that can be involved ("lol even if Seeds can reproduce asexually that doesn't mean they aren't biologically female, haven't you ever met whiptail lizards or aphids, lamers").

(2) The pseudo-satire page on "if the Angels had sexes, what would they be...?", revised to compensate for its obvious antiquity. There's currently no mention of that evil Angel-XX franchise, for one thing. And much as I hate to bring it up to you directly, because the thought still raises my blood pressure for some reason, the all-terrible fem-Kaworu escapes mention as well. (In case you still hold that strong stigma against it: these days fem-Kaworu is, don't ask me how, more or less a retarded Godwin's Law-esque meme, and totally not the manically-proposed "theory" that you came to initially know.)

EDITS: For added clarity.

Reichu wrote:(In case you still hold that strong stigma against it: these days fem-Kaworu is, don't ask me how, more or less a retarded Godwin's Law-esque meme, and totally not the manically-proposed "theory" that you came to initially know.)

I've noticed that. And I'm too old and indifferent to care about it anyway. What's currently on the Radioactive Waste page seems like a good summary to me.

So, if we have these three pages
1. mostly-serious NPOV gender page
2. Angel gender "omake" page
3. Radioactive Waste

are they enough to contain all aspects of the gender issue?

_SHE
XIT

I think those three pages will do. Any more would be rather excessive.

My vote:

X_ SHE
_ IT


What can I say, I'm used to it and at least the Eva/SoL being female makes sense to me. The Angels I'd have no problem being called "it" but majority rules.

Dr. Nick wrote:I've noticed that. And I'm too old and indifferent to care about it anyway.

Heh, I know the feeling.

So, if we have these three pages ... are they enough to contain all aspects of the gender issue?

For our purposes now, at least. The female/mother themes and symbolism in the show deserve analysis pages at some point, but it's not entirely the same thing. I guess.

I scribbled out some stuff for a general page addressing the whole sex/gender thing, and it occurs to me that this might be a good opportunity to introduce the first original "essay" to the site. The subject just kind of lends itself to essay format, plus it involves some issues I'm a huge sucker for and could do some nice writing on.

The overview of “pronoun usage in the fandom and pros/cons” would be there, natch. However, I also think that there is value in exploring some of the closely interwoven, at times inseparable issues. For example, the role that English’s limitations and socio-lingual considerations have played in generating this “dilemma” in the first place, and contrasting it with, say, Japanese, where arguing about this stuff just doesn’t seem to have occurred to people. (Unless I simply failed to Google the right combinations of keywords when searching for equivalent discussions in the Japanese fandom, which I suppose is possible…)

You don't need to worry about me writing a book -- it would all be structured and build up to its points deliberately. But, for all the ADD kids who find even that too much, there would be a "tl;dr" abstract at the beginning.

SSD wrote:What can I say, I'm used to it and at least the Eva/SoL being female makes sense to me.

I'm not certain that everyone who voted "it" actually goes that route, left to their own devices. (In fact, I'm certain that not all of them do.) This is less about personal preference and more about what makes good policy for a community-run site. At least, that's the message I hoped to get across by raising a white flag and relinquishing my own infamous and divisive sensibilities.

I do appreciate your honesty. I guess I just want my own motivations to be clear.

Reichu wrote:This is less about personal preference and more about what makes good policy for a community-run site.

Agreed. 'It' is more sensible as a general policy.

Adam, Lilith and Evas = she

Angels = it

I won't use "ve" under any circumstances, as it is not a legitimate part of the English language.

Re Capitalization: My concern is that if we don't capitalize title pages properly people will think that we are not entirely literate.

Reichu wrote:I do appreciate your honesty. I guess I just want my own motivations to be clear.

Glad to hear it and perfectly understandable.

thewayneiac wrote:Adam, Lilith and Evas = she

Angels = it

How I feel, and what I was trying to say if I didn't make it clear earlier.

With "ve", I have no problem using it in the forums if nothing else.

_ SHE
X IT

Angels, Adam, Lilith and the Evas. And I have always considered "ve" very unfriendly to newbies and visitors as it is an invented pronoun. I'd use something like S/he instead.

Currently 2:7. Should we keep going...?

Seems like a pretty set trend to me. Your call.

I don't really expect any change at this point, but I'll leave it open for new votes until Monday. Then it gets officially implemented.

I didn't vote because it didn't matter to me either way. I went ahead and changed the Adam and Lilith pages to see how they read. Everyone should peruse through them to see if they like the "she" -> "it" and "her" -> "its" changes.

How does this change affect the commentary? In just the last 2 days I've pasted several instances of Unit-01 being called "she". Do I leave in the shes because it's the commentary? Change them in the script but leave them in the comments?

I think we should let the Evas remain "she" in the commentary pages. Looks like there's another rule modification to make. "It" remains for the wiki pages proper but not the commentary.

Edit: Never mind...

Wayne, feel free to change any instances of "she" you see in my script translations. Don't worry about the cuts you've already finished; you can just start implementing the policy with the cuts you're putting up now. I'll take care of the others when I do my cleanup operation.

The non-NPOV comments, naturally, don't get touched.

(1)
While working on some Wiki updates, it occurred to me that, being as NME Angels still don't officially have names, they should be referred to by ordinal. E.g., even though 9th Angel is shelved on the Bardiel page -- due to being essentially the same thing -- when talking about the thing in Eva 2.0, "9th Angel" should be used, not "Bardiel".

(2)
In the wake of "Unit ##" being used in the English dialogue in 2.XX, my stupid old guideline about Evangelion designations can probably be shot dead for something more lax. Hence, the shorthand formulations "Unit ##", "Unit-##", etc., would also be acceptable, although a single article should stick to one or the other.

(3)
See last item here for reason to modify Asuka's westernized name orders to "Asuka Soryu Langley" and "Asuka Shikinami Langley".