[Books] Shizo/Parano

For talking about everything else Evangelion: from the various manga and video games to merchandising and video/audio releases.

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Postby LiLi » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:25 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'd be more than willing to provide, since the whole thing was never translated, and the translations that were done haven't been double-checked, and I can always hope... :wink:


Y-you T-temptress! :devil:
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Postby Xard » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:25 am

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:Actually I think I also saw something from the "Devilman and the Oedipus Complex" section from Schizo, and that also seemed pretty strange.


With name like that what would you expect? :hahaha:

Though the section I REALLY want to be translated is the "be creative and masturbate!" one :lol:

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:As in, the Jungian term? That would be mighty interesting. Many have alraedy said that it would be wothvile to try and push NGE through a Jungian filter as a from of analysis. That interview sounds like a really fascinating find.


Absolutely in Jungian terms. Also, in-contact-with-rei-through-his-subconscious totally plays in this idea too. Holy fuck, those few lines alone strenghtened a great deal what I've speculated about Rei, Jung etc. in regards of Eva. Awesome.

Now if I had NGE (I still haven't got Platinum and I don't have eps on my computer ^__^' ) I might as well return to my crazy theorizing..oh well.

Kaworu being Anno's shadow however is peculiar idea. Pretty interesting and sets the homolust of ep 24 in partially new light.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
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And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
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Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby LiLi » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:52 am

View Original PostXard wrote: Kaworu being Anno's shadow however is peculiar idea. Pretty interesting and sets the homolust of ep 24 in partially new light.


Do tell. :devil:
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Postby Xard » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:57 am

View Original PostLiLi wrote:Do tell. :devil:


Oh, without further details I won't speculate anything as it would be just projection... :lol:
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby NAveryW » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:13 pm

I created a thread for the books a while back, but it was absolutely fruitless except for some way too vague/wrong translations. I'm very glad to see actual progress; I'd given up. Thanks to everyone who's contributing to making this long-available information actually available!
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Postby Riotgear » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:07 am

View Original PostLiLi wrote:Are the Proposal pages all in one issue of Evangelion Chronicle or would I have to buy all of them? Can I get away with buying the digest versions? (I checked the wiki but couldn't figure it out... thanks for any input!)

Someone else asked this a while ago so I dug out the 'Essential Eva Chronicle' books to check and found that there is no 'proposal' stuff in either of them, at all.

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Postby 1731298478 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:41 am

So, I'd like to try and make an attempt to translate a couple of the excerpts from these books that circulate on the internet.

Here is one discussing Murakami's "The Fascism of Love and Fantasy" or "The Fascism of Love and Illusion." This was posted here. The website lists it as being from QuickJapan, but according to this page, that volume of QuickJapan contained material published in "Schizo." The interviewer is Kentaro Takekuma, who is listed as the editor for "Parano" on Amazon.

One question I have about this excerpt is whether Anno is referring here primarily to the final version of Eva or to an earlier version. There is another purported excerpt of a roundtable with Tsurumaki, Sadamoto, and some others, where an earlier conception of Evangelion with a much stronger "oedipal" focus is briefly discussed.

There will undoubtedly be mistakes in the translation, so I really appreciate input/corrections. I left out one sentence I wasn't sure how to interpret.

---

庵野 『愛と幻想のファシズム』とか。あれのゼロが好きなんです。依存心の高い。村上龍も僕と同じで何もない人だと思う、すごく情けない人。
竹熊 すごく文体なんかもスタイリッシュでしょ。スタイルで読ませていくタイプ。
庵野 結局、そこでしかない。女に依存して自分を維持しようとしている情けない人なんでしょうね。
竹熊 村上自身を自己投影しているわけですね、ゼロというキャラクターに。
庵野 ゼロを否定しきれないまま終わってますよね。あれがまた情けないところが露呈していて、本人は逆を狙っているのかもしれないけれど、結局本音の部分がゼロに出ていて、すごくいい小説です。あとあれの中で、村上龍も依存型の口唇期だと思うんですよ。母親にやたらとこだわっていて、女にもやたらとこだわっている。女の胸で泣くって事にもこだわっている。あとはやたらと父親を排除しようと考えてますよね。エディプス・コンプレックスの話だと思うんですよ。
大泉 システムを破壊しようという、根元的な欲求がありますよね。
庵野 そうです。父親を殺して母親を犯すというエディプス・コンプレックスの話ですけれど、僕もこれをスタートするとき同じだなと思った。シンジが父親を殺して、母親を寝取る話ですから。
大泉 巨大化した母親(笑)。
庵野 ロボット-ということで置き換えることはしたけれど、オリジナルな母はロボットで、同年代の母親として綾波レイが横にいる。実際の父親も横にいる。全体の流れを司るアダムがもう一人の父としてそこにいるんです。そういう多重構造の中でのエディプス・コンプレックスなんですよ。やりたいのはそこだった。『愛と幻想のファシズム』なんです。思想的なところではこの小説と同じところはあると思いますね。あれを読んで、話がちょっと進んだっていうのはあります。一番感動したのは、あそこで鈴原冬二という主人公が、いまの総理大臣を殺そうとしたときにすごく父親みたいな感じがしたんです。俺は父親を殺し、日本っていう母親を犯すんだって思 う。それで日本を破壊して行くわけです。そのくだりがすごく好きなんですよ。あれが村上龍の本音が出ていて好きなんですよ。すごく。小説自体はすごくつまらないけれど(笑)。          

Anno: "Ai to Gensou no Fascism." I like "Zero" [from that novel]. He is a highly dependent personality. I think Ryu Murakami and I are the same [as Zero]: empty people. Really pathetic people.

Takekuma: His writing style is very stylish. [His books are] the type you keep reading because of the style.

Anno: In the end, there's nothing else. It's pathetic people trying to maintain themselves, living dependently on women.

Takekuma: So, the character Zero is Murakami's own self-projection.

Anno: He remains unable to reject Zero. That also reveals a pathetic quality; the man himself aims at the opposite, but in the end part of his true feelings come out through Zero. It's an amazingly good novel. I think Murakami is also an "oral stage" dependent type. He is overly fixated on the mother, and overly fixated on women. He is also fixated on the idea of crying into a woman's chest. Finally, he is always thinking of doing away with his father. I think it's a story of the Oedipus Complex.

Takekuma: There's a desire to destroy the system [in Murakami's work].

Anno: Yes. It's a story of the Oedipus Complex, where one kills one's father and violates one's mother. However, when I started [Eva], I thought the same [way]. Because it [was] a story where Shinji kills his father and steals his mother from him.

Takekuma: A mother who has become a giant (laughs).

Anno: There was this replacement by a robot, so the original mother is the robot, but then there is a mother of the same age, Rei Ayanami, by [Shinji's] side. [She is] also by the side of the real father. There is also another father there, Adam, who governs the overall course of events. An Oedipus Complex within these multiple structures; that's what I wanted to do. "Ai to Genso no Fascism." I think there are ideological elements that are the same as those in the novel. [...] The thing that most moved me was [the fact that] when the protagonist, Toji Suzuhara, attempted to kill the current Prime Minister, he felt [the Prime Minister] was very much like a father. He thinks, I will kill my father, and violate my mother, Japan. So, he goes on to destroy Japan. I really like that passage. I like that Ryu Murakami's real feelings come out there. The novel itself is extremely boring, however (laughs).

---

An excerpt from Parano on Rei (posted here). I mentioned it a bit earlier in the thread.

---

庵野 「実は僕、レイって、全然思い入れないんですよ」

「『エヴァ』を作ってる最中でも、ハッと気がついたら、僕、忘れてましたからね。
彼女の存在すら。七話なんて、思い出してレイのシーンを1カット足したぐらいです。全然思い入れがなかったですね。
そこが良かったんだと思います。
八話なんか、出て来ないですかね。一カットも出て来ない」

「六話が早すぎたんですよ」

「最後でレイの「どうしたらいいかわからないの」っていう台詞に、シンジが「笑えばいいと思うよ」って言った時に、
レイが笑顔を見せると。(略)後になって考えたら「しまった!」と。
つまり、そこでシンジとコミュニケーション取っちゃったら、終わりじゃないかと。
その瞬間に僕の中で、レイって終わっちゃったんですよ、一度」

「笑ったところで、もうおしまいじゃん、このキャラクターって」

Anno: The truth is, I have no emotional attachment to Rei at all.

In the midst of making Eva, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten her. Her very existence. For example, in episode seven, I remembered and added one shot with Rei. I had no attachment to her at all. I think that was okay, because in episode eight, she didn't appear. Not even in a single shot.

Episode 6 was too early.

At the end Rei says "I don't know what to do," and Shinji says, "I think you should smile," and Rei smiles. ... Afterwards, when I thought about it, I cursed. In short, if she and Shinji completely "communicated" there, then isn't she over with? At that moment, Rei, for me, was finished.

When she smiled, she was already finished, this character.
Last edited by 1731298478 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:07 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:21 am

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:The thing that most moved me was [the fact that] when the protagonist, Touji Suzuhara, attempted to kill the current Prime Minister, he felt [the Prime Minister] was a lot like his father. I think he kills his father and violates the mother "Japan." That's why he goes on destroying Japan. I really like that passage. I like that Ryuu Murakami's real feelings are coming out. In a big way. The novel itself is extremely boring, however (laughs).

So that's what 'Toji Suzuhara' is from... holy cow!

Also, talk about burying the lead!
Episode 6 was too early.

At the end Rei says "I don't know what to do," and Shinji says, "I think you should smile," and Rei smiles. ... Afterwards, when I thought about it, I cursed. In short, if she and Shinji completely "communicated" there, then isn't she over with? At that moment, Rei, for me, was finished.

When she smiled, she was already finished, this character.

Absolutely fascinating. Thanks so much for this, 1731!
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:12 pm

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:One question I have about this excerpt is whether Anno is referring here primarily to the final version of Eva or to an earlier version.

I'm really curious, too. Anno refers to Adam as 父 here, but Kaworu calls Adam 母たる存在 in episode 24.

Anyway, this stuff is good to have. Thanks!

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Postby Six Winged Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:37 pm

Thank you VERY much for the translations 173! That's interesting about rei-

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'm really curious, too. Anno refers to Adam as 父 here, but Kaworu calls Adam 母たる存在 in episode 24.

Anyway, this stuff is good to have. Thanks!


Anno's just trolling with Kaworu ;p It shouldn't matter much anyway since adam cannot be described by gender, being a Seed of Life that can create life by itself-
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Postby Born of Lilith » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:44 pm

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:Anno: The truth is, I have no emotional attachment to Rei at all.

In the midst of making Eva, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten her. Her very existence. For example, in episode seven, I remembered and added one shot with Rei. I had no attachment to her at all, right? I think that was okay, because in episode eight, she doesn't appear, right? Not even in a single shot.

Episode 6 was too early.

At the end Rei says "I don't know what to do," and Shinji says, "I think you should smile," and Rei smiles. ... Afterwards, when I thought about it, I cursed. In short, if she and Shinji completely "communicated" there, then isn't she over with? At that moment, Rei, for me, was finished.

When she smiled, she was already finished, this character.


After almost half a decade of being more smitten with Rei than someone ever should be with a fictional character, this gives me a sinking feeling. T_T

What he said about Rei being finished after her smile, though, kind of affirms something in an interesting essay that I stumbled upon a few weeks ago, which asserted that Eva as a story ended at Rei's smile.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:55 pm

View Original PostSix Winged Angel wrote:Anno's just trolling with Kaworu ;p It shouldn't matter much anyway since adam cannot be described by gender, being a Seed of Life that can create life by itself-

You have no idea how many times I've heard this. Click on the post-link for more.
View Original PostReichu wrote:Careful there, "gender" is technically different from sex, much as the vernacular likes to use it as a homonym/euphemism. (...) Seeds of Life -- however the hell their sex would be classified after intensive scientific study -- have pre-used souls, like Evas (as stated in NGE2:AC). So their gender is whatever they think it is.

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Postby AchtungAffen » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:20 pm

And here I always thought that Rei's sub-exposition during the series was done on purpose as to give her a mysterious charm or something. Now 'tseems it was more of an accident. But even being like penicillin, an accident, I believe they made the right decision. A character such as Rei becomes crappy once it's exposed enough. If it wasn't because of Anno's premature ejaculation with Rei's smile, I may not have liked that chara as much as I did and do.
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Postby Xard » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:36 pm

This interview right here has my second favourite Anno (after the one who goes "too bad" over fanboys and trolls everyone). Intelligent, perceptive and thought provoking but also frank and straight to the point to almost disturbing degree without hint of pedantry or pretensions. This is great stuff.

That Anno planned this complex structure of "Oedipal struggles" playing out on multiple levels from start seems to go against/overthrow the common wisdom that Anno only started to dig in psychological themes and books during the halfway point. I've always had problems with this view, namely because the stuff Anno mentions here is painfully obviously psychoanalytically tinted from start but all sources seem to indicate Anno only took the shift in focus during the second half.

It will be extremely interesting to see what Anno has to say about Rei in new Rebuild interviews and contrast it with what we see here.

Also, I can't be only one who has had thoughts like these after reading this excerpt but...well, I wonder if Anno's intentions for Rebuild harken back to these early master plans and Rei's alt. development and bigger role in 2.0 is him trying to resolve his "screw up" in ep 6 of original. The Shinji/Gendo relationship angle is the focal point of new films and Rei's role is vastly larger - Asuka hasn't eaten it away like in original.

Furthermore I'm not sure how relevant this is to the books but I wouldn't be surprised if etymology behind the titles "parano" and "schizo" is relevant to the contents of some interviews. Yes, parano and schizo are jap shortenings of "paranoiac" and "schizophrenic" but they have highly focused and short history which weighs on the two words.

They're tied to history of "New Academism" of 80s aka "New Aka" as Japanese call it:


Hiroki Azuma on "Database Animals" wrote:

This personality-driven discursive culture has historical roots in the culture of the literati of bundan since the Meiji period, but in the early 1980s it entered into another phase with the highly sophisticated consumer culture of the post-high-growth Japan in the background. Asada Akira (b. 1957) exemplified the New Academism. His Structure and Power, a schematic but hardly accessible introduction to poststructuralist thought (in particular Lacanian psychonalaysis), sold more than 100,000 copies, and the schizo and the parano - terms from one of his books for the schizophrenic and paranoiac - were chosen as "buzzwords of the year" in 1984. Asada, a young academic with pale face, became a media darling and it became a vogue for young adults to carry around a copy of Structure and Power. Although the initial boom waned in the ensuing years, the movement influenced many young readers, infusing theoretical language into the popular idiom, and catapulted those intellectuals outside of academia but well versed in such language to the forefront of critical discourse."


Anno was certainly of right age in early 80s. Can someone with the books (or simply access to their Index which might be possible on Amazon) check out if New Academism, Asada Akira or Structure and Power come up in the Indexes? :)

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浅田 彰 - Asada Akira
構造と力─記号論を超えて - Structure and Power - Beyond Semiotics

I don't know how New Academism is spelled though
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And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
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Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby NAveryW » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:57 am

In case anyone's awaiting available materials to translate more, there are a bunch of quotes here (the quotes appear confined to the green text), including previously translated and as of yet untranslated quotes from Schizo and Parano as well as Newtype and other interviews.

And this page has a long excerpt from (or perhaps the whole chapter) "The Work is a Masturbation Show", in which the "Kimochi warui" line is discussed as well as... something about a play where the actors start masturbating or something. Also, Miyazaki is mentioned.
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Postby berto » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:00 am

i think that that comment about Rei might be about a point before Rei had a place in the story, where she was still no more than the girl in bandages, at a point where she didn't look like his mother.

it is hard to imagine there been such little love one of the most mysterious characters in the show but if it's true that anno doesn't love Ayanami then so be it, as long as he doesn't skipout on the character it doesn't really matter.
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Postby Sun Stealer » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:01 pm

How does an author not have empathy for his characters? I mean they are a product of his mind.
"Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You've read through this entire story so far. To recap, the story has featured Rei wondering if she has become a giant insect and considering wearing a Carmen Miranda hat, Kaji completely blowing off important duties, Shinji and Asuka blowing up a building downtown, Misato driving drunk and nearly killing Rei in a hit-and-run, Fuyutski fearing imminent death from a man dressed as a giant slice of pepperoni, Rei talking to a bagel, and Shinji and Asuka digging up an entire cemetery. And now it's character derailment. Okay."-Esselfortium
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Postby Xard » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:41 pm

View Original PostSun Stealer wrote:How does an author not have empathy for his characters? I mean they are a product of his mind.


"Do you like the anime you make?"

"There's parts I like and parts I don't."

"What parts do you dislike?"

"The parts that I'm in."


Really now...
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby esselfortium » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:48 pm

View Original Postberto wrote:i think that that comment about Rei might be about a point before Rei had a place in the story, where she was still no more than the girl in bandages, at a point where she didn't look like his mother.

I'm not sure. When Anno says he has no sympathy for Rei, he refers to having had problems continuing her character arc after the events of episode 6. If this were from early in the show's production, he wouldn't have to have kept her development in episode 6 as it was originally planned.

View Original PostSun Stealer wrote:How does an author not have empathy for his characters? I mean they are a product of his mind.

Yeah, it is pretty shitty. C'mon, Anno.

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Joined: Jan 03, 2008
Location: Finland
Gender: Male

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Postby Xard » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:01 pm

If you hate yourself isn't hating the products of that self also quite logical and understandable? I don't see at all what is surprising about it. Nabokov hated Humbert Humbert, should he like the character just because H was created by him?
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.


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