Evangelion 2.0 CRC: Tsurumaki Interview

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:25 am

Thanks a lot, Number-kun!
You are a Hero! Like Re!Shinji. Just a bit more heroic since your translations didn' trigger Third Impact (yet)

This clears up A LOT. So, my dear haters, Anno DID contribute to the movie himself. And he does the posters! I KNEW he did the posters! (or has his hand in them) So he considers Asuka's "See, I'm smiling" and Mari's awesome "You will never have Fun" quote important. Yay. It's a nice feeling to be right. "Save Rei" was also one of this decisions.

Tough It's also good to be corrected/take a step forward; At first, I thought that Rebuild was "EVA, if the characters had taken a different road", but the last interview made me wonder wether it's actually "EVA, with the message made more obvious so the damn otakus can't get it wrong AGAIN", but after reading this, I've reached the conclusion that it's both.

I agree with Tsurumaki in the last bit. Rebuild clearly showed Shinji as being stubborn and trying his best for others not to convince him - He's chanting "I won't pilot" much like his usual nigecha-dameda-mantra,(Mari wasn't even trying to convince him) untill Rei's 'death' knocks him out of his stubbornness and he realizes that he WANTS to get into the mecha REAL FAST.
I guess 'Makki's (XD) comment encouraged Anno make sure it was obvious this time.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:28 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:So, my dear haters, Anno DID contribute to the movie himself.

Was that ever contested?
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:42 am

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Was that ever contested?


I was exaggerating. PPL were complaining that Anno left too much to his assistants.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:39 pm

Tsurumaki's comments about Anno not having changed that much after all are quite nice to have. (In addition to everything else, of course.)

I'll try to finish scanning both Anno interviews and OCR some stuff... but probably won't happen RIGHT away.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:16 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Tsurumaki's comments about Anno not having changed that much after all are quite nice to have. (In addition to everything else, of course.)

I'll try to finish scanning both Anno interviews and OCR some stuff... but probably won't happen RIGHT away.


Don't worry, there's no hurry. Number-kun is currently busy with the rest of Tsurumaki's stuff anyway.
Anno's interview is going to be the one that brings sense into all this since Anno was the 'Centerpiece' in the Production of the movies, so having it translated before the rest will ruin us the Fun and the speculations XD
And you said there's TWO interviews with the man himself? What, like, about different topics?
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Postby NAveryW » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:21 pm

Calling it now: Anno's 37-page interview will have two pages of information about 2.22 and the rest will be about Ultraman.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:32 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And you said there's TWO interviews with the man himself? What, like, about different topics?

Each of the Complete Records Collection books so far has a long interview with him. Not counting image- or profile-only pages at the end of each:

1.0 CRC: 25 pages
2.0 CRC: 30 pages

The 2.0 interview is probably much more interesting, but Number-kun needs the first one available to him for context if nothing else.

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Postby Xard » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:50 pm

It'll be interesting to compare the two.

I hope they have lots of fun Anno LOLWUT tangents in addition to Ultraman.

I mean stuff like this
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:10 pm

I can't wait for Anno.
You know that documentary with the kids? I watched it recently. I expected him to be severe, society-crizising, complaining/millitant type, but he's actually pretty nice, intresting and pretty funny. (tough he looks disturbingly like Gendo with curly hair - I mean, I'm a writer myself and I gave plenty of my characters my big breats just so I could complain about them, and some got my love for the Japanese cuisine... but THIS. IS practically a self-portrait. Except for the outfit... I guess Shinji got the 'cute/akward' part. )
His interview is gonna be entertaining
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Postby 1731298478 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:14 am

Part 7 of Tsurumaki's interview.
The usual disclaimers about the translation apply.
I really don't know how to translate the title of this one!

---

"三人目のレイに託そうとした想い"

--- At what point did you decide that the climax would blend the story of episode 19 with elements of episode 23?

Tsurumaki: I had suggested that this would be a good idea, and it was [in place] from a very early stage. The original plan had been for "Break" to comprise episodes eight to nineteen. I thought this would be difficult. If the number of episodes covered would be large in any case, I thought we should instead increase the range to include episode 23, and free up the third part onwards. I thought it would be unpleasant to leave "homework."

--- So you could admit new elements in the future?

Tsurumaki: Right. There was a feeling that we wanted the difficulties to be, as far as possible, confined to "Break," because we wanted a situation where we would be able to try various things in the third part. So, after Rei's death in episode 23, Kaworu comes to Shinji; we attempted a structure similar to the TV series. But, in the end, Rei didn't die........

--- Instead, it seemed that Shinji and Rei "got together."

Tsurumaki: There is probably some other intention there, so I think you should check with Anno-san [about that]. However, because there was a feeling that Rei III had been poorly developed in the TV series, after Rei II died in "Break," we wanted to develop in detail the drama of Rei III in "Q."

--- So it's something you were not able to fully realize in the TV series. "Because I am the third" is an amazingly impactful, famous line of dialogue, but, in truth, I felt that [Rei III] didn't really mean much after that.....

Tsurumaki: I thought going deeply into that would be interesting, even in a "Science Fiction"-like way. As Rei realizes the fact, and the significance of the fact, that there has been more than one Rei before her, how, as a clone, will she achieve her independence as an individual? I wanted to develop a story like that. However, it was decided that Rei wouldn't die, and, in the climax of "Break," we strongly and actively push the idea of "Rei and Shinji being brought together," a development taken over from "Prelude."

--- That was an extraordinarily surprising development.

[Tsurumaki: Because it's even linked with the motivation for having Asuka pilot Unit-03, it ended up being a stronger way of developing things than I thought. ??]

[?? アスカを3号機に乗せるための動機にも連動していることなので、思っていたよりも強い描き方になってしまいましたね。]

--- There's one thing that mystified me. Despite the fact that the original scenario for the climax was different, in "Prelude" Gendou mentions something like a "love love strategy" intended to bring Rei and Shinji closer together. Why does that appear to be consistent [with "Break"]?

Tsurumaki: Anno-san probably hasn't thought about that very deeply.

--- Eh? That wasn't foreshadowing?

Tsurumaki: We on the staff had a conversation about that dialogue from "Prelude," wondering if it was okay to have [Gendou] say that. Not to mention that I thought Rei II was going to die in "Break."

--- Then why, despite that, was there a consistency?

Tsurumaki: This is evidence that the story was developed, not with an "inductive" technique, but with a "deductive" one. "He already said it there, so we have no choice." It's something like a methodology where [the story] is adjusted, even forcibly, to be consistent with what has already been done.

--- This is quite a shock (laughing)! Surely, immediately following "Prelude," there are people who grin and say of the "love love strategy," "This is a big change!" Surely it leaves a strong impression on everyone. As a result, they will surely think during "Break," "Ah, as I thought, those two were brought together!"

Tsurumaki: The impression that Anno-san mainly wanted to convey was that Gendou and Fuyutsuki were devising a secret plot. Because Shinji happens to go to Rei's room just after that, that was what they discussed. When "secret plot" and "Shinji and Rei" were combined, it probably appeared something like "a strategy to bring together Shinji and Rei."

--- Rather than being disappointed, I'm impressed. All the more, I have a pleasant feeling that things have become "Eva-esque." The fact that this consistency is inherent [makes it] extremely valuable; I am delighted [to think] that this may be the much-discussed "live feeling." [*] In any case, there will surely be many viewers who have the impression that, this time, Gendou's Human Instrumentality Project [somehow depends on] this "love love strategy." Fuyutsuki also says something like, "As we thought, owing to those two Unit-01 has awakened."

[* There is a footnote about this. It refers to Anno's desire to bring the "live feeling" of theater into anime.]

Tsurumaki: And Gendou replies something like "A little while longer, and our project is complete." I had doubts storyboarding that conversation, and sent Anno-san a series of questions about it. "So Gendou knew this would happen to Unit-01? Or was Gendou also surprised and troubled? Or was Gendou surprised, but pleased with the outcome?" I didn't understand the specific meaning of the statement, so I struggled to interpret it. Anno-san replied that, "For now, we'll say he aimed at this and things went the way he expected." I wondered if that was enough. For myself, I am still skeptical that even Gendou isn't really panicking inside, but...

--- So [everything] will probably be overturned again next time?

Tsurumaki: That is perfectly likely (laughs).

--- One more thing: Kaworu's existence in light of the fact that we are given this strong impression that, "this time, the human instrumentality project was this 'love love strategy' with Shinji and Rei." There's no doubt that female fans were extremely pleased by Kaworu's line after the ending: "Ikari Shinji-kun, this time, I will make you happy."

Tsurumaki: Kaworu's line stayed the same from the very first storyboard. It was something he said while wearing his usual relaxed smile. Of course, at the last minute, just, I think, before we started postsynchronization, we began talking about whether or not it would be better if Kaworu looked scary during that scene.

--- As a result, it looks like he's come to take his bride by force! [*]

[* その結果、略奪婚に来たみたいに見えますよね。"略奪婚" refers, I believe, to the ancient practice of abducting one's bride from a hostile tribe. Today I believe it's used to mean a marriage that results from an adulterous affair, i.e. "stealing a husband/wife from someone." I assume the original meaning must be intended here?]

Tsurumaki: Right, right (laughing). [We thought it would be] more interesting if Kaworu looked like [he was thinking]: "You've been with a woman while I've been away? How dare you...!" It's not Kaworu's usual relaxed expression; he's somehow become irritated, right?
Last edited by 1731298478 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby SaltyJoe » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:37 am

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:I didn't understand the specific meaning of the statement, so I struggled to interpret it. Anno replied that, "For now, we'll say he aimed at this and things went the way he expected."

[URL=http://img525.imageshack.us/i/nobloodyclueanno969.jpg/]Image[/URL]

Oh Anno. Still, it's good to hear that they don't ignore possible plot points that were established in the previous movie just because they thought of something else since. This is something that should be considered elementary, but given how erratic the production of these movies seem, it's nice to hear.

If the number of episodes covered would be large in any case, I thought we should instead increase the range to include episode 23, and free up the third part onwards. I thought it would be unpleasant to leave "homework."

So they really do intend to thread new ground in Q. Excellent.

It refers to Anno's desire to bring the "live feeling" of theater into anime.

This was brought up in this discussion Anno had with Kunihiko Ikuhara (Sailor Moon, Utena). They also talked a bit about the transcendental qualities of the human body and the difficulties of producing something like that in animation. I really want to believe that all those voyeuristic fanservice shots are somehow tied to this agenda.

EDIT:
View Original PostNAveryW wrote:So what it looks like is Evangelion is planned the same way as Battlestar Galactica.

The Cylons had a plan... unlike the writers.
Last edited by SaltyJoe on Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NAveryW » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:27 am

So what it looks like is Evangelion is planned the same way as Battlestar Galactica.
"Today?... hmm... today... right... Um... I'm just gonna wing it." -Guess who

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Postby Charon » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:15 am

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:
Tsurumaki: Kaworu's line stayed the same from the very first storyboard. It was something he said while wearing his usual relaxed smile. Of course, at the last minute, just, I think, before we started postsynchronization, we began talking about whether or not it would be better if Kaworu looked scary during that scene.

--- As a result, it looks like he's come to take his bride by force! [*]


Oh lawd... "love love plot" and Kaworu's come to steal the bride. Well, the ominous tone does make the scene seem a lot more dramatic. I withhold judgment on this until it becomes clear if they did decide to go with Kaworu being the one who's tearing Asuka's face off inside of Bardiel.

Interesting that Rei was originally meant to die again. It looks like the story will be completely off the rails from this point onwards.

Thanks so much for the translations, 1731298478!

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Postby Rodeo » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:25 am

I really wish they'd killed of Rei...

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:13 am

View Original PostRodeo wrote:I really wish they'd killed of Rei...


C'mon, If you're a true fan of Number 3's, you should appreciate that - after all, she never wanted to exist anywayXD And we got Mari instead!
...Okay, I'd be pissed, too, if they cut out my favourite characters, but I just love Rei II so much, I'm glad she survives.

So while they originally thought of implimenting her and giving her a bigger Role in Q (hence the alternate self-destruction scene in the discarded storyboards), Rei III is definitely off the plate.

So, the shipp-y overtones were very, very intentional - doesn't mean that Shinji and Rei will be riding into the sunset in Q, but there's clearly something there and we're meant to see it that way.
Don't complain, Asuka Fans, you already got a version where Rei kicked the bucket and Shinji and Asuka somewhat discharged their feelings at each other/ the ending with the small caress on the beach.

I LOLed at the Kaworu part XD I agree that for the new vievers, it#s better to instroduce him with a somewhat ominous expression, (To recreate the "who the fuck is he and what are his intentions'-feel from ep 24), but that they planned to instroduce him with his usual smile means that they're keeping his personality.
Puh. I don't want EMK again.

I just can't wait for Q, it seems like it's going to be new stuff entirely with exeption of ep 24 and maybe the flashbacks.
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Postby NAveryW » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:20 am

I think the important thing to learn from these translations is that there's no point to any of the speculation threads because there are no answers yet. Are the movies a sequel to NGE? Who knows? Certainly not Anno and friends.
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:24 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:I think the important thing to learn from these translations is that there's no point to any of the speculation threads because there are no answers yet. Are the movies a sequel to NGE? Who knows? Certainly not Anno and friends.


But where would the fun be in that XD?
We might speculate about what THEY may think of, I mean, they aparently stick to what was done before, so they're not going to suddenly give us pink elephants

EDIT: Oh, and thanks a lot, Number-kun. You're doing a great service to us all! So what's up next?
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Postby CORE » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:59 am

The thing about Q+Final speculation is that unlike 1.0-2.0 the only speculation can be based of what was not done or what you think their intentions where.. one of which is endless possibilities.. and one of which even if you base there intentions off there word of mouth change over time... unlike 1.0-2.0 which for the most part where to the name a rebuild. Q+Final is going to build of what exactly.? rebuilding a dream like experience is hard.. and even harder to speculate on.

Do you no think that 2.0 ends after episode 26/EOE ? just with a late introduction of Kaworu and more Mari saved for 3.0+FINAL.. what original information would you say Q has its self to base of... if you say the Dream space events i guess thats fair but with 2 versions of that i say thats impossible to use as a reference. And thous moments of thoughts inside Shinjis mind could already be over at the end of 2.0. leaving us with nutting but a completely blank future.

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Postby gwern » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:43 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:I think the important thing to learn from these translations is that there's no point to any of the speculation threads because there are no answers yet. Are the movies a sequel to NGE? Who knows? Certainly not Anno and friends.


I don't agree. If we take Tsurumaki at his word, they're heavily constrained by all the previous plot elements.

We can make probabilistic predictions based on those constraints. If nothing else, we can predict what we *won't* see. If we have correctly interpreted those plot elements (interpreted them as Kararers have), then we should make very few mistakes.

Is there any spirit of Eva or any sort of guiding idea or paradigm at all?

Then we can narrow down our predictions even further and rule out even more plot turns and predict specific plot turns.

To use a Shakespeare analogy, imagine he's half way through _The Tempest_. He's winging it, it's based on no previous story. You're Shakespeare scholar Harold Bloom, who believes that he deeply understands Shakespeare's sense of the world and humanity. Maybe Shakespeare doesn't yet know where he is going, but you, an outside observer, can do better - it's not going to end as a comedy, for example, nor is the ending going to be a cheerful revenge-fest. Look! You just demonstrated that there is point to speculation!

Or what would you make of a chess-player who says, 'Oh, I have no idea what Kasparov's next move will be of the dozens possible (he could even make this pointless queen sacrifice), they all look equally good to me, and I don't even know what he's aiming at!' and who is deeply surprised when Kasparov checkmates his opponent (of all endings)? I'd say he's pretty stupid ([url]http://lesswrong.com/lw/v8/belief_in_intelligence/[/url]). I hope we're not pretty stupid about Evangelion.

In general, I may not be able to predict every twist and turn of the ideas Kharers will go through as they develop 3.0 and 4.0, but I ought to at least have a decent idea of the end-point they're aimed at.

(I believe that one can be very good at predicting the future with practice, as long as one learns humility and slow careful thought. I have a pretty good track record, I think: http://predictionbook.com/users/gwern and http://www.gwern.net/Prediction%20markets . I am also occasionally working on a large set of Eva predictions which I hope everyone else will record their probabilities for whenever I finish it.)
Last edited by gwern on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:12 am

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:I really don't know how to translate the title of this one!

---

"三人目のレイに託そうとした想い"


This is what I got with help from Jisho.org (rather difficult on a PC that doesn't display Japanese characters!) "Entrusting the third Rei's distant feelings." Adjust my translation accordingly.

And heh, now I'm VERY curious on where Q will go with Rei along with the other characters. I'm glad they've acknowledged that Rei 3 (obviously) doesn't have character development compared to Rei 2. Not just because Rei 3 was only in a few episodes, but they really didn't emphasize Rei's loyalty shift from Gendo to Shinji, which was a pity. (Rei 3 crushes Gendo's glasses, Kaworu gives Rei the "hint" that her soul is Lilith's, Rei goes along with Gendo's plans until she senses Shinji, kindly gives him a restart in the LCL Sea... But what? Does she remember her memories of Rei 2 when she hears Shinji freak out at the start of M26'? Had Shinji not freaked out, would Rei 3 have simply gone along with Gendo's plans anyway? Even worse, no introspection with Rei's thoughts/feelings on Yui in either ending, just her thoughts/fears of Lilith in Episode 25... I love Rei 3 and do find her interesting, but ugh, the ball was really dropped with her.)

Also, not to start a "Oh, look it's THAT thread again" debate, but do any of the Interviews or other materials in CRC mention WHEN in the production did Khara decide on having Asuka Langley Shikinami instead of Asuka Langley Soryu? Quite a few merchandise from around the time of 1.0's theatrical then DVD/BD release still refer to her as "Soryu". And I know that there was the "announcement" in her new last name with the release of the 2.0 poster, I'm just curious if any of the 2.0 drafts/whatever else mention WHEN the last name change was. (I'm assuming the WHY, especially the -nami naming scheme (at least Asuka's case, if not all 3 girls.) will be given some sort of in-universe reason within Q or Final at some point...)
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