Concerning the sex scenes, I found them quite refreshing. All of my personal relationships have involved a lot of sex, often arbitrary sex with no relevance to the plot that is my life. So, it is nice to see Chuckmen fucking. Chuckmen fuck.
Concerning abortion, terminating an early pregnancy isn't a big deal for some. I've taken "Plan B" after a confusing situation, which some would characterize as an abortion. Also, I've had friends who've had "something" fall into the toilet during the first few weeks of an unplanned pregnancy, and they did not consider it to be akin to losing a child.
Interesting read here O-chan. I guess kimimaru was assuming the pregnancy/abortion wouldn't be seen in such negative optic because the baby had "tainted genes" (angel genes).
I think on a very personal level the view of Asuka's abortion can't be seen callous nor casual; Retake was never about the baby, it was about the way Shinji, and Asuka by default, are given a second chance not to get pregnant and have a family but rather at finding each other.
In a way Kami is simply a guide; like ghost Asuka who was there to remind Shinji of his past failures, Kami is there to remind Asuka her own failure; her pride and obstinate persona; just like the little girl represents the hope of Chuckmen coming back, maybe Kami is supposed to represent Asuka's own maternal instincts, lingering and dormant but there none the less as well as a reversal on how Kyoko protected Asuka all those times and how now Kami was the one protecting Asuka as well.
Godfuckingdamnit Eric-kun, I was going to do something productive today and now I'm going to bust out Re-Take.
And concerning "tainted genes", that'd definitely give a practical reason to abort, and gives another dimension to Ritsuko's involvement. You know... this whole thread has given me a lot of reason to go back and experience the story again. In fact, this whole forum makes me go back to all my My Mother the Robot shit... damnit, the internet is destroying me.
Having seen different fandoms where different sets of idiosyncrasies get hung out on display as being "typical human", I have concluded that everybody generalizes from their own Chuckman and experiences and often with humorous results. The corollary being that what is one Chuckman's "yeah, that's normal" can be another's "that stretches credibility under the circumstances"
what is one Chuckman's "yeah, that's normal" can be another's "that stretches credibility under the circumstances"
I think that was assumed by everybody the moment O said "my personal relationships"; having to explain this as "eye of the beholder" makes it look like someone is going to assume 13-14 year olds in Japan have sex at the drop of a hat.
I'm not saying that those who feel the sex is gratuitous are virgins and thus "don't get it"; my main point is that given how this is Japan, the land where hugging and holding hands is like having sex in public, Shinji and Asuka having sex is a huge deal for the story because it shows from a cultural level the level of commitment there is between those two.
The point can also be said a out Shinji actually having sex; a boy who was always reticent to opening up finally decides to "live" and the corollary becomes the change in views; before it was Shinji chosing to live life to the fullest extension of the word, after it was Shinji vowing to live to protect Asuka and her baby.
In this case, for me at last, sex is shown as a reaction of the daily life of the character, and the baby is a catalyst of how this choice affects the way someone chosed to live.
Hahahaahaha, yes, I am probably not the "average human being" when it comes to sex.
But I'd point out that Asuka's hardly a complete innocent. She spent her formative years in Germany, a country more sexually liberated than Japan and every English-speaking country. She had clearly already begun to view herself as a sexual creature, no doubt fantasizing about some ooey-gooey fun with Kaji. Being super-educated, she probably even researched all sorts of things about sex in preparation for Kaji.
Also, once you've done it once, it isn't so mysterious. Certainly less mysterious than fighting giant space monsters. So in that sense, it strikes me as reasonable that they'd get up to some hard fucking. It certainly would provide for a nice escape. It is easier than trying to score drugs.
But I like Eric-kun's notion that Asuka/Shinji fucking means they're serious. I called it an "escape", but sex is also the biological purpose of life, so to see Shinji engaging in that... it is delightful. It is like he's truly living. And seeing a sex scene between them, in a quality manga (even if it is a fan-made one), is very... satisfying, after all the "will they or won't they" type stuff. It is satisfying in the same way it is satisfying to see an Robot deliver the finishing blow to an angel. I don't mind that it is explicit, because real sex is not about subtle framing and dramatic lighting. It is about a lot of flesh slapping against flesh. One of my memories of virgin-loss was how... messy it seemed, compared to the movies.
And, let's be honest, I am horny and I like lewd pictures.
I am probably not the "average human being" when it comes to sex.
In my personal experience, there is no "average human being" when it comes to sex.
Asuka's hardly a complete innocent.
Yeah, I would put smart money on Asuka being curious about the concept of sex, starting with a childish curiosity ("why are they doing that?") and ending with a biological curiosity ("you mean I need to do that to become a woman? GROSS!")
But I agree, sex is not some mysterious door or ritual; however remember that a lot of cultural settings regard sex as the ultimate "road towards adulthood", like a rite of passage; I can see Asuka and Shinji engaging in having sex, or fucking out of boredom, or out of distress; I mean, you live in a world where a giant monster from outer space can come down and destroy/kill you at any minute; I wouldn't think less of them for having sex under those circumstances.
And, let's be honest, I am horny and I like lewd pictures.
Join the club.
Last edited by Eric Blair on Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
The Chuckman world EoE-Asuka puts up for Shinji in RT4 to have him live a happy life is set in a future three years later. In that, Asuka had apparently lost her child too though, as she didn't have one until then, three years later.
Good observation. Of course it can be argued that in that "virtual world", it seems that not only Shinji lost his status as Angel, Asuka also lost her Angel baby. But it could not be concluded that in the "actual world" the same would necessarily happen. And there are other issues not quite clear in the "virtual world". Where Kami-chan went was also unexplained in the "virtual world" -- presumably also disappeared just like the Angel in Shinji and Asuka's Angel baby?
From a story point of view, I can see a possible plot hole here. Kimiharu originally ended RT at RT4. So it is possible at that time he meant to end Asuka as coming out without baby in her body, just like Asuka in the "virtual world". However, he later decided to extend the story, and he came up with using abortion as a plot device. So in RT-AFTER Asuka became still in pregnant status after RT4.
I don't really mind how the story went either way, and I would not try to argue which story development is more consistent with the character or how the Robot world should function. What is clear is that with RT-AFTER, Asuka definitely had an abortion and the most natural conclusion is that at the end of RT-4 Asuka was still bearing the baby.
But Asuka also mentions that she's leaving in three days in that scene with Hikari, so it can't be closer to the punching scene than that with Shinji and Misato.
I should have remembered that part as I mentioned that part only a few days back. Thanks for the reminder. So it became clearer now: Hiraki+Asuka scene and Misato+Shinji scene happened on the same day. And that day was 3 months after Asuka moved out of Misato's place. From the flow of the story, Hikari seemed to speak to Asuka not long after Asuka punched Shinji for the second time. The time line before that was a bit blurred. It is even possible that the Asuka+Ritsuko took place right after her abortion operation.
One thing to note is that in All Ages edition, Hikimaru tried to clean up a bit of the timeline. He removed Asuka+Ritsuko scene, and he added "2 months later" at the point where RT4 ends and RT-AFTER begins. It is still clear that Asuka got an abortion, but without the Ritsuko scene, it reduced the confusion that Asuka got abortion between the first punch and the second punch. Instead the hint is that Asuka got abortion in the 2 months in between.
Like I mentioned before I don't really mind detailed timing, like if Asuka got her abortion before the 1st punch, or between 1st and 2nd punch. Different interpretations here may project a slightly different picture of Asuka's thinking and emotion, but the general story line stays the same.
Well, the story as whole I like, it's just this angle that irks me. That's why I'd rather go pretending that she just got herself stitched up and everything's great. ;P
I said earlier that while I agree that sex is necessary part of the story (even in All Ages editon, the non-stop sex story line was kept intact) the depiction of sex was gratuitous. The reason is that it indeed took unnecessarily many pages and frames to depict the sex in action. And the many angles used there are standard H manga approach, which includes suspiciously horny looks.
Again I don't really mind in which sex scene got Asuka pregnant. I just think that the tone of the dialog by Asuka points more to Asuka taken preparation before having sex with Shinji.
On the other hand, in the All Ages edition, it may be that Asuka actually conceived in the first sex scene. It is because 1) the locker room sex scene was changed so that no sex took place; 2) the "preparation speech" by Asuka in the first sex scene was also cut. Of course it is again possible that the conception happened during the non-stop sex sessions. Come to think of it, the probability should favor conception during the sex marathon time. And ET1.5 also hints that embryo started to form at that time.
On the locker room sex scene, a closer reading of the dialog seems to hint at Asuka saying if Shinji came, she could also come. The key word is "made", meaning even or including. So the Japanese would be translated to "If Shinji comes like this, even I would..." Here I stand corrected too.
BTW, the All Ages edition did not just cut scenes, it also added the time indicator of "1 month later" in the place between where RT1 ends and RT2 starts.
Ehm, first panel on that page clearly shows her legs clamping around him.
Point taken here.
In the scene with her (and later Rei) in the bathroom, where we get the first hints that she's pregnant.
Oh, that scene -- the word "kakugo" did appear, but the context indicated Asuka's concern that she could be dropped from being Robot#2 pilot. She meant although she was prepared to be dropped as pilot, still when it actually happened it was still frightening. On the other hand, it is likely that when, just before the "kakugo" sentence, Asuka said that if Ritsuko found out about her she would be dropped, she meant that she worried about being found out by Ritsuko that she was pregnant.
Eric Blair wrote:
Yep, that's the one; the main Rebuild of My Mother the RobotRetake thread; this was a question made that somehow hasn't been merged to the main discussion body.
Thanks. I can see that the thread has now lost its AT Field and merged into the main Retake body....
Eric Blair wrote:
Not far enough... I started a brief analysis, posted it and then got swamped with several other writing projects.
Analysis may take time. Perhaps I can just write up a synopsis and finish the wiki entry. It may follow my interpretation of events though...
Eric Blair wrote:
I had at first thought Retake after was nothing more than Kimimaru cashing the cow, since it added nothing to my main questions Retake left me with, such as who was the little girl, and whatever happened to Shinji and Asuka,, but after reading it, I have to admit it became a guilty pleasure of mine, the story was awesome for a one shot, the flow was nice and the characterization kept itself in tune to what we had read in Retake, and what had deviated from the original series.
You know what? If Kimiharu wants to make a few bucks by milking the Re-Take cow, I am ready to be milked I even have a suggestion for him: Draw 4-koma strip comics or short manga story showing some family comedy of Asuka+Shinji+Kami and their bunch of friends !! I don't think I have seen doujin manga based on a happy Asuka+Shinji family yet. He could even add a few H scenes to spice things up, ha ha....
Eric Blair wrote:
I cannot agree with you more that the reason why After made a big contrast was because Robot fans as a whole seem to think that in Robot there should never be a happy ending, a bad end is always needed, and required in some cases, for you to have validity as an Robot fan;
Sometimes it does seem that way -- you are only serious if you favor the miserable and traumatic.
Eric Blair wrote:
the airport scene was touching, and incredible and it took my breath away when I saw it; the follow up scene prompted me to write something, ANYTHING to get the feelings out of my system; and the epilogue was the cherry on the cake; it was the last blow needed for Asuka to truly walk the extra smile and let go of the "regret" and "too late".
And seeing her walk out, determined to fly back to Japan to settle things with the idiot once and for all, only to have said idiot in front of her, as if by providence was amusing, humorous and heartwarming at the same time; one of those moments where you don't need words, only the image is needed to convey a myriad of emotions... all powerful, all at once.
RT4 and particularly RT-AFTER contain a lot of scenes that would very likely to become "meibamen 名場面" (iconic scenes) if it is ever made into anime. The wedding ceremony. The wedding invitation card. Asuka holding her baby with Shinji by her side under a tree. Asuka and Shinji crossing finger watched by the reborn girl at the very end of EoE. The airport scene. Asuka saying goodbye at airport vs EoE-Asuka apparently saying goodbye just before the "virtual world" scenes in RT4. Asuka stepping out of her house in Germany and saw Shinji. Asuka holding up her hand with the ring vs Asuka holding up her hand in EoE trying desperately to seek hope and help. Asuka's "ich verspreche dir" speech. Asuka and Shinji kissing in tight embrace on a snow field. If made into anime, each of them could sell a lot of merchandise I am sure.
Eric Blair wrote:
I will side step the Rebuild of My Mother the Robot mine here and say simply you should consider things very careful while seeing it; it's not for every fan, and if you are, like me, an Asuka fan first and foremost; the kind of fan who saw and fell in love with Robot because of Asuka, there is a very high possibility you might feel cheated.
From what limited I know about Rebuild of My Mother the Robot, I think among the key characters Asuka got modified the most. Her name is changed; her plug suit and Robot changed. A new female character will only cut down her exposure time, and who knows what would happen between Shinji and this new character? There is also one reason why I may want to check only after the 3rd movie is out: Because I would not need to speculate what would happen to Asuka (and her relationship with Shinji) after Rebuild of My Mother the Robot #2, as I usually tend to think pessimistically -- this is how much I do not trust Anno after MMtR and EoE.
Eric Blair wrote:
Everyone has their own opinion about the sex scenes; I personally think that while cheesy, and gratuitous and graphic in nature, they serve to explain a lot of depth about the characters that words alone cannot convey; the action in itself of physically showing someone you love them is very strong and moving; I cannot state here enough that sex is something needed here to explain that because it's a human reality in the sense of loving someone so much, so hard and so deep that you show them with your body, and it only makes the affirmation of "I'll try to live happily for you" even much more poignant and powerful.
Personally I quite like H stuff if it is drawn nicely, so my preference is with the adult version. It is just that the focus on the details of the H actions during the sex scenes did make the manga look like porn got mixed in a drama story. I am fine with it, but I can see why many would find it awkward. The All Ages version resolves that issue, while sacrificing very little of the impact of the story. On that aspect, the All Ages version can be considered successful and should broaden the appeal of Re-Take manga.
I'm just a new one here in the forum,and well ,while I was surfing on the net and downloading the doujin of Robot Retake I've found this forum and I got interested in the Chuckmen and their comments about this great anime(one of the best ever,or even the best ever!)
So ,about this Doujin.. that I decided to finish its reading after 1 year(yeah I didn't find out interesting that time,but just now when I realize I'm back to MMtR again...well that's because I'm a bit - maybe a little more - down)
So...what kind of impressions did u have?
Do u think Doujin was so much "Asuka's fans" made ?
Do u think it's really contain the same level of art as Hideaki Anno's MMtR?
What do u prefer ,and for which reasons?
Plz let me know what all u think,just type all the shit that comes up on your mind! xD
You can find links to all versions on the Chuckman's TV Tropes page, that's how I found the all ages version to read. I regretted reading it almost immediately afterwards, but I did read it. Now I'm only left with complete bafflement over how this thing become so popular.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum