Reconsidering the NGE2 PS(2/P) Game's Canonicity

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:05 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:
esselfortium wrote:The point isn't whether or not they're consistent with what's obviously canon, the point is whether or not they actually had any real impact on the show's development, and whether they had even been thought of yet when the show was made.
Well, I myself take as 'given' that Anno participated in the development of NGE2 in a very significant way, and that, in particular, the CI straightforwardly represents his thinking and concepts about all the back-story stuff regarding the FAR, the Seeds of Life, and the Spear of Longinus. As an example of an issue where what's in the CI is almost certainly "something Anno really had in mind all along, but didn't bother to explain in the series", consider the enigmatic image of Adam as found in the White moon, impaled on the Spear; the CI's cryptic explanation of that image is (once you figure it out) so ingenious and apposite, that nothing else one could come up with could beat it. The FAR were conceptually around in NGE from the get-go, and I think the Spear was supposed to serve as a vehicle of their intentions and purpose within the story all along.

But then why choose to never mention or directly allude to them in any way, ever, at any point during the series? With an entire 13 hours to tell a story, I'm sure Anno could have fit them in somewhere.

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Postby Xard » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:19 pm

Because these things were unessential and he himself really didn't care?

Eva's fractured second half is deliberate - it very literally forces viewers to seek for the answers by themselves (such as that there are hints of FAR in show e.g "artificiality" of White & Black Moon but nothing is literally spelled out), even to some plot points (not to mention overall themes etc.)
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:27 pm

Xard wrote:Because these things were unessential and he himself really didn't care?

Then why should we?

Eva's fractured second half is deliberate - it very literally forces viewers to seek for the answers by themselves (such as that there are hints of FAR in show e.g "artificiality" of White & Black Moon but nothing is literally spelled out), even to some plot points (not to mention overall themes etc.)

I was talking about this with Luc the other night, and he suggested that if something's plot can't be adequately explained without having to unlock hidden bonus content in a videogame made 10 years after the fact, it probably didn't have much of a plot to speak of in the first place. I can more or less agree with that.

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Postby Xard » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:49 pm

esselfortium wrote:
Xard wrote:Because these things were unessential and he himself really didn't care?

Then why should we?


Good question. I've never felt any need for absolute in-universe answers for everything.

esselfortium wrote:
Eva's fractured second half is deliberate - it very literally forces viewers to seek for the answers by themselves (such as that there are hints of FAR in show e.g "artificiality" of White & Black Moon but nothing is literally spelled out), even to some plot points (not to mention overall themes etc.)

I was talking about this with Luc the other night, and he suggested that if something's plot can't be adequately explained without having to unlock hidden bonus content in a videogame made 10 years after the fact, it probably didn't have much of a plot to speak of in the first place. I can more or less agree with that.


Am not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me...
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Merridian » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:53 pm

esselfortium wrote:he suggested that if something's plot can't be adequately explained without having to unlock hidden bonus content in a videogame made 10 years after the fact, it probably didn't have much of a plot to speak of in the first place.
:shrug: I'd watched NGE about 3 or 4 times (not counting individual re-watchings of eps outta order) prior to even hearing about this forum, and I found the plot perfectly adequate without all the CI stuff. The things that weren't "adequately explained" were more like details than actual plot, and the explicit plot elements that were left unresolved (like NERV spies, Who Killed Kaji, etc) were foreshadowed enough to suggest likely connections without the need for spoonfeeding. I never saw stuff like FAR to be necessary plot elements so much as just another layer of intrigue that made NGE so mysterious.

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Postby Shin-seiki » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:07 pm

esselfortium wrote:But then why choose to never mention or directly allude to them in any way, ever, at any point during the series? With an entire 13 hours to tell a story, I'm sure Anno could have fit them in somewhere.
The plain fact is that NGE is a mess, and Anno had more story that he wanted to tell than he could fit in 26 broadcast episodes, hence the DC and EoE. And while he said (paraphrasing) "there is no Eva Manual; figure it out yourself" time and filthy lucre changed his mind, hence NGE2 and the CI.

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:14 pm

Merridian wrote:
esselfortium wrote:he suggested that if something's plot can't be adequately explained without having to unlock hidden bonus content in a videogame made 10 years after the fact, it probably didn't have much of a plot to speak of in the first place.
:shrug: I'd watched NGE about 3 or 4 times (not counting individual re-watchings of eps outta order) prior to even hearing about this forum, and I found the plot perfectly adequate without all the CI stuff. The things that weren't "adequately explained" were more like details than actual plot, and the explicit plot elements that were left unresolved (like NERV spies, Who Killed Kaji, etc) were foreshadowed enough to suggest likely connections without the need for spoonfeeding. I never saw stuff like FAR to be necessary plot elements so much as just another layer of intrigue that made NGE so mysterious.

Well, that's at least partially the point. Not just that this stuff was probably not in mind at all when the show was actually made, but also that if it was considered important at all it would have been worked out and at least partially explained 10 years sooner than it was. A lot of this sort of stuff just seems to pile a ton of unnecessary complication on top of NGE without actually adding anything meaningful to our understanding of it. Eva seemed mostly pretty simple and straightforward until I came here, though of course that's not entirely the fault of CI-related stuff. (See signature quote; it's jokey, but I think it does make a decent point about how far things have been taken from what the show actually was.)

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Postby Xard » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:19 pm

I fail to see how CI haven't been illuminating :think:

liking CI or not is of course different thing, but I don't think there's reason to say they have been unenlightening
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:29 pm

Eh. I suppose you're right, I just feel like its importance has been hugely overstated.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:24 pm

Thanks to Naveryw for the source (which I believe is this particular Japanese Eva-wiki fan page, one that's currently--annoyingly--full of spam when you access it). Translation by me, proof-reading/double-checking by Eric Blair. This seems to be regarding the PS2 version of the game, by the way.

According to Naw, the sentence before this section "just says it answers mysteries such as the identity of the Second Angel and the First Ancestral Race".

Translation wrote:These [mysteries] are addressed in the form of Confidential Information in the game. Basically, GAINAX as well as Hideaki Anno supervised. They didn't mind to speak up and it was a semi-formal setting.

However, Alpha System's stance is "This information is absolutely reliable." compared to GAINAX'S comment "Enough information has been provided in the TV series and film. These are just the settings established for the game." and show the difference as a slight nuance. If one part of the game's section is altered, the original version's portrayal will clash with that section.


Original Japanese wrote:これらはゲーム内で機密情報という形で扱われており、基本的にGAINAX並びに庵野秀明の監修がなされているため、準公式設定と看做してかまわないとの声がある。しかしアルファシステム側が「これはもう絶対確実な情報だけです」とコメントしたのに対し、GAINAX は「情報はテレビ及び映画で提供したもので充分であり、ゲームのためにひねり出した設定があります」と、ややニュアンスの異なりを見せていることや、一部ゲームならではの改変をされている部分、本編の描写と食い違う部分もあること


According to Naw, the last sentence regarding information clashing is probably just a decision on the part of the Japanese wiki, since ours is full of stuff like that too.

It doesn't seem to be anything too enlightening compared to what people already know about the game: certain events are going to be slightly different depending on who you play as (for instance, while Fuyutsuki and Gendo chat about bringing the Spear to Lilith both in the series and the game, there's a new part inserted when you play as Rei with her hesitating to put the Spear inside Lilith). Still, this is an interesting little tidbit regarding canonicity, I think.

"Slight nuance" seems fitting considering how the Angels can attack in random order, changes of dialogue can sometimes happen depending on who you talk to and when (as well as just slightly different dialogue from the series in general), etc.
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Postby NAveryW » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:28 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:According to Naw, the last sentence regarding information clashing is probably just a decision on the part of the Japanese wiki, since ours is full of stuff like that too.
"According to Naw" makes it seem like I actually knew something, heh. That was just a guess.
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Postby Eva 02 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:32 pm

View Original PostMerridian wrote::shrug: I'd watched NGE about 3 or 4 times prior to even hearing about this forum, and I found the plot perfectly adequate without all the CI stuff. The things that weren't "adequately explained" were more like details than actual plot, and the explicit plot elements that were left unresolved (like NERV spies, Who Killed Kaji, etc) were foreshadowed enough to suggest likely connections without the need for spoonfeeding. I never saw stuff like FAR to be necessary plot elements so much as just another layer of intrigue that made NGE so mysterious.


I really like this post, because I agree. I watched NGE countless time even since before 2000, and I find out about CI in 2010. There are a lot of years to form my own resolutions and put the plot together in my head. The supplemental sources are... well.... Supplemental. The plot is fine on its own and material released FAR after the series just doesn't "feel right." (far, FAR: no pun intended) To better explain, a creator will always sit in regret after completing a story, only able to think of what he should have done different or what he could have added or taken out. Anno seems to be obsessive in this respect, much like Jimmy Page and Led Zep Cd's. When time passes and then they "have a part in" a new release of information, you just tend to not trust it as much. Thats why George Lucas and Spielberg ruined some of their classic movies with "rebuild's" and some of the most die-hard fans refuse to consider it. It is spoonfeeding in essence, not only has he emphasized drawing ones own conclusions, but what he did supplement adds on a huge chunk of story that really sounds like a separate story altogether.

It really seems like Anno was thinking of a backstory or prelude - there's really no excuse to go on this huge tangent about First Ancestral Races and a coincidental double-seeding on some video game. Wheres the Novel, wheres the Anime/Movie. If its really intended to be legit and true the show then we would be able to watch it, even put it in Rebuild. Until then I'm gunna associate any conflicting evidence with "The sea is red in Rebuild so therefore the show is wrong." Maybe I liked it better when I didn't know Kaji's killer, or saw the killer's gloves look surprisingly like Gendou's. There's no reason to explain why Lillith looks the way she does, its Science-Fiction, trying to come back and explain allllll these details is like trying to justify unreal elements that you are supposed to enjoy in fantasy. Trying to make fantasy seem as real as possible only succeeds in reminding you of how far from reality it is.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:49 pm

Maybe I liked it better when I didn't know Kaji's killer, or saw the killer's gloves look surprisingly like Gendou's.


Say what?

In any case, it really doesn't seem like Gendo to take care of that sort of business personally unless he had to. Why risk letting Kaji unexpectedly get the drop on him somehow?
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Postby Eva 02 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:05 pm

Ya check it out. The Director's Cut DVD version. It shows the man's arm pointing the gun and a cuff of a Nerv uniform (Black I believe) and his hand is gloved, the kind of Mickey Mouse-style white gloves with the 3 lines running along the back-hand. They look surprisingly like Gendou's, but then again, if you're gunna kill someone you should always wear gloves - at least thats what I always say.

Now I'm not saying that's what I strictly believe, it was an example of "palatable uncertainty" to prove my point of satisfaction regarding the show's open ended-ness.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:20 pm

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:Ya check it out. The Director's Cut DVD version.


That certainly isn't in the episode 21' I've seen... it just fades to black and we hear a gunshot.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:22 pm

@Eva02
You seem to be thinking of the manga.
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Postby thewayneiac » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:23 pm

View Original PostEva 02 wrote:Ya check it out. The Director's Cut DVD version. It shows the man's arm pointing the gun and a cuff of a Nerv uniform (Black I believe) and his hand is gloved, the kind of Mickey Mouse-style white gloves with the 3 lines running along the back-hand. They look surprisingly like Gendou's, but then again, if you're gunna kill someone you should always wear gloves - at least thats what I always say.

Now I'm not saying that's what I strictly believe, it was an example of "palatable uncertainty" to prove my point of satisfaction regarding the show's open ended-ness.


The Director's cut DVD shows nothing of the kind. You're thinking of the manga.
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Postby Eva 02 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:44 pm

Ah, Indeed - Just checked Volume 8. Weird, I haven't read the mangas in 3-5 years but I recently watched the series about 3 times w/ my gf (some eps more than others YKHTG).

But thats not the point. That was a small ending comment while the meat is in the post. Bite into that! On the same note, the Manga is a great example.
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Postby nomis1242 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:57 pm

Hope you can forgive me for Necro-threading AND backtracking at the same time!

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Thanks to Naveryw for the source (which I believe is this particular Japanese Eva-wiki fan page...)

These [mysteries] are addressed in the form of Confidential Information in the game. Basically, GAINAX as well as Hideaki Anno supervised. They didn't mind to speak up and it was a semi-formal setting.

However, Alpha System's stance is "This information is absolutely reliable." compared to GAINAX'S comment "Enough information has been provided in the TV series and film. These are just the settings established for the game." and show the difference as a slight nuance. If one part of the game's section is altered, the original version's portrayal will clash with that section.

According to Naw, the last sentence regarding information clashing is probably just a decision on the part of the Japanese wiki, since ours is full of stuff like that too.

It doesn't seem to be anything too enlightening...
Actually, it could be totally enlightening! I think it is crucial to CI's Canon status. Because it's saying that Gainax consider NGE2 to be a separate continuity.

So this quote is just from a fan-wiki? Any idea if Gainax's quote is legit?

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Postby thewayneiac » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:11 am

View Original Postnomis1242 wrote:Hope you can forgive me for Necro-threading AND backtracking at the same time!

Actually, it could be totally enlightening! I think it is crucial to CI's Canon status. Because it's saying that Gainax consider NGE2 to be a separate continuity.

So this quote is just from a fan-wiki? Any idea if Gainax's quote is legit?


I think you are over-interpreting the Gainax statement. It just seems to be saying that the Eva 02 game is not canon to the series in instances where they disagree. That rule is already in the Tiers of Canonicity. The Eva 2 game is full of "what if?" scenarios that diverge wildly from the series and are obviously not canon. Info from Anno that does not contradict the show should be considered canon. The C.I. meshes perfectly with the show.
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