(Second) Evas vs. Angels Design Contest! (Afterthoughts)

Fanfiction, fan art, AMVs, and any other fan creations or Eva-related projects: share your work and discuss others' here.

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Postby NemZ » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:59 pm

While Formless and Ursus do have good points, I still disagree. I suppose it isn't surprising, considering my suggestion was aimed at bringing in new blood rather than preaching to the faithful.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciated the expansions some contestants offered this year, with comics, fanfics, or almost encyclopedic reference photos. From the larger perspective though I think this could get out of control very quickly, a sort of creative arms race, and that seeing that much effort being put into this thing will scare off people on the fence.

I like the minimum limit, and I think that using both that and a maximum limit (along with a reasonable cap on pics) is the best solution. It lays out to potential newbies exactly what is expected of them, encourages focus from designers, makes the whole contest more reader-friendly and makes the entries more directly comparable to the judges.
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Postby Formless One » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:52 pm

NemZ wrote:I suppose it isn't surprising, considering my suggestion was aimed at bringing in new blood rather than preaching to the faithful.

Bringing in new contestants would be nice, but that isn't a matter of changing the rules of the contest; its a matter of advertising and getting the word out to the creative people on this and other websites like DeviantArt who might be interested in NGE fandom. How we are going to do that I don't know. But setting a low overhead on length isn't going to attract people, and I can easily see it putting them off.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciated the expansions some contestants offered this year, with comics, fanfics, or almost encyclopedic reference photos. From the larger perspective though I think this could get out of control very quickly, a sort of creative arms race, and that seeing that much effort being put into this thing will scare off people on the fence.

I think you are overestimating the reaction creative people have when seeing this kind of standard, NemZ. These are the things people enjoy making, and enjoy reading. A bare bones design with the least amount of effort put into it is boring, both to read and make. This is a contest, and from that perspective what you are advocating is giving the advantage to laziness.

I can see why you would be worried about people going waaay overboard, but remember that most people have real lives. In theory, that means that unless we get massive uberfans in here with no lives outside of NGE (and really, if people like that exist why aren't they on this forum already? unless of course they are ;) ) that is going to be a natural limiter on how much output we can expect from people. It doesn't take that much time to make one of these things. As a designer you should know that. And again, this is a contest mostly among fanfiction writers that give you two to three months to make it. You can write a decent short story in much less time than that. I don't see how this is anywhere near as big a problem as you think it is.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:47 pm

Formless One wrote:This is a contest, and from that perspective what you are advocating is giving the advantage to laziness.


No, I just would rather see people put that effort towards polishing an idea rather than expanding on it. Otherwise I still disagree, but I've nothing new to add.

On the subject of drawing in new contestants, might I also suggest starting a new thread each 'season' rather than tacking each contest onto the already huge one here? Just looking at the existing page count is a moment of tl;dr for some.
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Postby Chowwow » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:57 pm

UrsusArctos wrote:Formless One has plenty of stuff to say that I agree with. No need to have size and format restrictions: those would be an unnecessary damper.


That's true, I never wanted to restrict anyone in this Contest. However, something has to be done to reduce sizes to necessary proportions: we have to promote use of proper formatting and/or cutting out spam in entries and provide a resolution limit for illustrations so that they don't get too big.

Formless One wrote:Bringing in new contestants would be nice, but that isn't a matter of changing the rules of the contest; its a matter of advertising and getting the word out to the creative people on this and other websites like DeviantArt who might be interested in NGE fandom. How we are going to do that I don't know. But setting a low overhead on length isn't going to attract people, and I can easily see it putting them off.


Ugh, advertising - one of the most unreliable and potentially costly parts of my business. Advertising to other sites is a good idea though: IMDB is a crap shoot but I'll try again soon, and I actually know a couple of guys from Deviant Art that probably could act as advertisers. Does Evageeks have relations to other Eva forums? Perhaps we can tap into those avenues.

NemZ wrote:On the subject of drawing in new contestants, might I also suggest starting a new thread each 'season' rather than tacking each contest onto the already huge one here? Just looking at the existing page count is a moment of tl;dr for some.


That's a good point, and I was contemplating on doing this while I was starting Season 2. The thing is, I wonder what the mods would say about this? I am afraid of putting up too many similar threads that should probably be merged. I am also afraid of the old Seasons falling into obscurity once a new one arises, which would be a pain for people trying to look at the past entries. Until then, I've set up the archives for people to allow for quick viewing.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:03 pm

Chowwow wrote: However, something has to be done to reduce sizes to necessary proportions: we have to promote use of proper formatting and/or cutting out spam in entries and provide a resolution limit for illustrations so that they don't get too big.


Excessively long text or monstrous images would reduce a judge's impression of an Angel- and the "feel" of an Angel really counts. A good idea could easily lose out due to sloppy presentation. Making this clear to all competitors should make them pay a little more attention to how they present their entry.
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Postby Chowwow » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:56 pm

I think we can all agree that some pictures are just too big, so how about a resolution limit? Say, 700x700?

Also, I wanted to know if the mods would have a problem with having separate threads for each season?

It may be hard for some people to navigate this thread, I would actually rather keep this one thread up for all Contests and use the Archives to help with navigation.

Perhaps putting a sticky on this thread (though that may be inadvisable)?

And I'm still not convinced on what would be a good rule to limit excessive entries. A minimum or a maximum limit is gonna sound arbitrary, and like some of you have said, better formatting of an entry would probably work better.

Formless One wrote:
Chowwow wrote:The problem is, most people may still not take advantage of the subtleties of spacing in their entries anyway - that is sort of an acquired skill.

Yes, but I don't think its exactly an unteachable one. Just being sure everyone highlights the headers of sections alone makes an entry more readable. Learning to break up large paragraphs is a little harder, but not impossible to figure out. Little stuff like that goes a long way.


Then again, I feel that no matter how much I try to suggest better formatting, some people just don't get it no matter how old they are. Just try proofreading a paper for a high-schooler - didn't public education teach them anything?

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Postby Legendary » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:57 pm

Chowwow wrote:didn't public education teach them anything?


It taught them that there are no consequences for any of their actions, and that no matter how much someone threatens to punish them, they'll never really go through with it.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:13 pm

Legendary wrote:It taught them that there are no consequences for any of their actions, and that no matter how much someone threatens to punish them, they'll never really go through with it.


...usually because parents intercede on their behalf.

Also, a teacher who gives students the low marks they truely deserve for poor work can often come under administrative review because schools are often far more concerned with the appearance of learning (grades and standardized test scores) then they are with it's actual occurrence.
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Postby Legendary » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:15 pm

Not saying it's the teacher's fault. I'm saying that's what school has taught them.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:17 pm

agreed, it's a systemic problem. fixing it would require not only overhauling the entire system, but changing the public understanding of their roll within the new framework.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:38 am

Chowwow wrote:I think we can all agree that some pictures are just too big, so how about a resolution limit? Say, 700x700?

Also, I wanted to know if the mods would have a problem with having separate threads for each season?


No qualms about the 700 pixel width, but I'm not sure about the 700 pixel height. We'll see about the height later, but the width restriction is fine.

Having separate threads for each season doesn't sound like too good an idea to me. I think keeping it to the old thread is a better idea.

It may be hard for some people to navigate this thread, I would actually rather keep this one thread up for all Contests and use the Archives to help with navigation.

Perhaps putting a sticky on this thread (though that may be inadvisable)?


Let other users put up their opinions about thread navigation.

Putting a sticky on this thread isn't a good idea, since it'll be dead for the entire off-season, and it could clutter up the top of the page with stickies...which is very annoying to some users.


And I'm still not convinced on what would be a good rule to limit excessive entries. A minimum or a maximum limit is gonna sound arbitrary, and like some of you have said, better formatting of an entry would probably work better.


Agreed.

Then again, I feel that no matter how much I try to suggest better formatting, some people just don't get it no matter how old they are. Just try proofreading a paper for a high-schooler - didn't public education teach them anything?


Well, you guys will have to lament the sad state of high school education the world over elsewhere. It's not the sort of thing our contestants would be terribly happy with.
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Postby Avatar of Dreams » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Hmm I generally upload my images at 800x600 resolution (like the pic of Shaghiel for instance). Is that too big?

I'm also going to have to go against the min max limit thing. A bit restrictive if you ask me.

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Postby Formless One » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:30 pm

Avatar of Dreams wrote:Hmm I generally upload my images at 800x600 resolution (like the pic of Shaghiel for instance). Is that too big?

IMO, not really. Shalgiel showed up just fine. Its the pics that break the page that I have problems with.

I'm also going to have to go against the min max limit thing. A bit restrictive if you ask me.

What would you think of my idea of having an award for best long/short presentation? BTW on a related note, I'm of the opinion that not all awards need to be given if a suitable entry isn't present. If there wasn't one decent character present for example, I would think we shouldn't hand out Best Character. so we shouldn't feel obligated to hand out best long/short form award if no entry met the requirements (length, readability, and plain old good presentation).
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Postby NemZ » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:39 pm

the 700px width limit makes sense because that's the max before the forum puts the pic in a scroll box, and making that the hight limit seems sensible as well, just for the sake of geometry.
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Postby Chowwow » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:06 pm

NemZ wrote:the 700px width limit makes sense because that's the max before the forum puts the pic in a scroll box, and making that the hight limit seems sensible as well, just for the sake of geometry.


I think I can agree with NemZ's assessment, 700X700 sounds fine. Even the Pic of Shalgiel could have stood to be a little smaller and it would have not taken anything away. And before anyone asks, that resolution is the LIMIT - all pics don't have to be squares! 700x600 or 400x234 or whatever works is fine too.

Formless One wrote:What would you think of my idea of having an award for best long/short presentation?


That idea sounds cumbersome to me, actually. I would rather have more Awards that bring praise to the Angel's characteristics than these technical ones. Then again, that could be one solution to the whole tl;dr problem.

However, it could still not solve anything: for example, a Designer could miss the point and make an entry that rambles on and on and on and on and on thinking that this will get him the prize, or put up a paragraph thinking it will get him the other. Then there are people who design Angels to specifically win a certain Award. Those who don't want the "Presentation-class" Awards could still end up posting entries with no attempt at making it presentable.

I think we need to attack this issue directly and convince people to either keep it relevant and neat. We don't want things to be too long, but we don't want it too short and sweet either, because that could have use thirsting for more! A properly done long entry can be rich and rewarding to make and read.

I have a pre-existing format already, but what can I do to make people to follow it a little more? Maybe I'll just add a line in the suggestions section to encourage better Presentations?

Formless One wrote:BTW on a related note, I'm of the opinion that not all awards need to be given if a suitable entry isn't present. If there wasn't one decent character present for example, I would think we shouldn't hand out Best Character. so we shouldn't feel obligated to hand out best long/short form award if no entry met the requirements (length, readability, and plain old good presentation).


I noticed that this was an issue in the first LDC too. While it's sad that we could end up with an entire roster that is unfit for a single Award, that may be a necessary act of Judgment. We could pass a rule to give Judges the right to leave a vote blank next time.

One issue I see with this is that what if one Judge sees all of the Designs to be unworthy and gives a blank vote, while another Judge feels and does otherwise? What if all but one Judges give a blank vote, and the Angel that gets that one vote manages to win? Is that fair? And how do I bring that up with the readers? "Most of y'all bitches failed in this category - except this guy because that guy decided to not hand in a blank vote!"

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Postby NemZ » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:17 pm

Ah, but you're looking at it the wrong way.... it should be an active vote, not a passive refusal. Just treat (None) as if it was a contestant, letting it 'win' any awards that a majority of judges believe simply shouldn't be assigned to anyone in the current crop.
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Postby Formless One » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:30 am

You know, the longer we talk about this supposed "tl;dr problem" the more I'm coming to think it may not exist. I mean, we only have a sample of three contests behind us to judge by, and most of the entries in the three of them have either been reasonably short, captivating despite their length, or else weren't likely to win Best Presentation in the first place because of bad formatting. All the solutions we have come up with have had some drawback or another (too arbitrary, too clunky, too restrictive, too pointless, etc.), and we haven't even clearly established that it is a real problem yet. So I propose we wait until the end of the next LDC at least to get a feel for what would be the best course of action, if any is necessary at all.

Chowwow wrote:One issue I see with this is that what if one Judge sees all of the Designs to be unworthy and gives a blank vote, while another Judge feels and does otherwise? What if all but one Judges give a blank vote, and the Angel that gets that one vote manages to win? Is that fair? And how do I bring that up with the readers? "Most of y'all bitches failed in this category - except this guy because that guy decided to not hand in a blank vote!"

Simple-- in order to win you need at least two votes. Or See NemZ's solution.

BTW, if you are really in need of inspiration on how to streamline the voting process for the judges, SDN had a thread about something similar (albeit for a much larger voting body) you can see here. But I digress.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:39 am

NemZ wrote:Ah, but you're looking at it the wrong way.... it should be an active vote, not a passive refusal. Just treat (None) as if it was a contestant, letting it 'win' any awards that a majority of judges believe simply shouldn't be assigned to anyone in the current crop.


This.
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Postby Chowwow » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:44 pm

Formless One wrote:You know, the longer we talk about this supposed "tl;dr problem" the more I'm coming to think it may not exist. I mean, we only have a sample of three contests behind us to judge by, and most of the entries in the three of them have either been reasonably short, captivating despite their length, or else weren't likely to win Best Presentation in the first place because of bad formatting. All the solutions we have come up with have had some drawback or another (too arbitrary, too clunky, too restrictive, too pointless, etc.), and we haven't even clearly established that it is a real problem yet. So I propose we wait until the end of the next LDC at least to get a feel for what would be the best course of action, if any is necessary at all.


Agreed, perhaps we should run a few more Contests to figure out what we need to do, then But should we really wait until after the LDC is over before discussing this over? Who knows what could happen by then?

Sooner or later, we are gonna be facing madness of the likes of TAO's Uriel or Sammandiriel again. And while I'm not saying that those entries were bad at all, I am saying that in those types of cases, something clearly has to be done to distill them into more assessable forms. I've always left Presentations up to the skill of the Designer, but at this point I'd like for people to realize that there is something called organization, and being too long or too short.

Maybe we shouldn't take any official actions on this. Perhaps just make it a painfully non-subtle hint that organizing entries for clarity would make things a lot better for all involved?

In other business, I now think it would be fair for future Judges to place a non-vote. It's still early for the LDC, so I'm wondering if I should implement it for that one.

Finally for those still listening, the third ADC is scheduled to start next year at May 1st, 2010. If you are really inclined to, you could start working on your Angel now before I even announce it. You can bet that I'm doing the same thing!

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Announcement for First Eva vs Angel Contest!

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Postby Chowwow » Sat May 01, 2010 3:18 am

It's May 1st, and it's now time that I got this tread going for another Contest. But this time, we are doing something a little different:

Announcing the First Eva vs. Angel Design Contest

Yes, this year we are accepting Designs for both Angels and Evangelion! Consider it as having two Contests at the same time; Angels and Evas will be competing in their own "leagues", with their own independent Contests and Awards. Some things to keep in mind:

    - The rules governing each are the same, as seen in the first page.
    - Designers are allowed to compete in each league, so it is possible for one to submit one Eva and one Angel this year - but no more.
    - Judges are now responsible for presiding over both leagues and must nominate Awards for both.
    - Evas will compete for Awards similar to the ones for the Angels: while they are of similar categories, they apply only to the Eva league and will not be competing with Angels for Awards.
    - The Awards for Evas are still to be finalized; Award for "Best Character" is being disputed as Evas do not have character.
    - One new cross-over Award is being introduced: The "Best Match-up" Award. This Award goes to one combatant from each league who can promise to have the most epic/interesting confrontation should they ever meet.

I am now accepting Designers and Judges to be registered for the Contest. Designers who wish to join must specify which league (Evangelion, Angel, or both) they wish to design for. The schedule of events can be seen here.

Hope to see you this year! This is gonna be great!


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