Story and Character Improvements

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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The Goose
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Postby The Goose » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:38 pm

Which was given to Shinji by Gendo. Rei knows that. During the helltrain sequence, Shinji says that he doesn't want it anymore. Yet Rei takes it up. And when they hug during the climax, Rei tells Shinji that she is sorry that she couldn't fix things between him and Gendo. I say that she has yet to give up on Gendo completely.


Why would she need another thing to remind herself of Gendo when she already has Gendo's glasses? Plus, Rei doesn't know that it used to belong to Gendo because the Rei Shinji was talking to was on the helltrain.

I do agree though that she hasn't completely given up on Gendo, but her loyalties are definitely shifting toward Shinji.

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Postby SaltyJoe » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:41 am

View Original PostThe Goose wrote:Why would she need another thing to remind herself of Gendo when she already has Gendo's glasses?

Not just Gendo himself, but the connection she, Gendo and Shinji share.

Plus, Rei doesn't know that it used to belong to Gendo because the Rei Shinji was talking to was on the helltrain.

Well, i subscribe to the theory that during these helltrain moments, Rei somehow makes a mental connection with Shinji.
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Postby The Goose » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:52 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Well, i subscribe to the theory that during these helltrain moments, Rei somehow makes a mental connection with Shinji.


Do you have any evidence proving your theory?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:08 pm

Precedence from the previous television continuity, probably. It wouldn't be the first time Rei's talked to him inside his soul.
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Postby The Goose » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:19 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Precedence from the previous television continuity, probably. It wouldn't be the first time Rei's talked to him inside his soul.


Do you have any evidence that Rei remembers something from talking with Shinji? Cause' I don't. And even if it did happen in the original series, it wouldn't matter since Rebuild is it's own continuity.

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Postby Legendary » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:21 pm

The only way the Rei Shinji encountered in the hell trains in the original series could be real is if it's GNR timehopping, which she's almost definitely done twice (the bookends). If this is supposed to be canon, it rather defines one thing for certain: Q or Final will involve GNR. If it's not canon and just incorrect fanwanking, then everything becomes all weird.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:45 pm

View Original PostThe Goose wrote:Do you have any evidence that Rei remembers something from talking with Shinji? Cause' I don't. And even if it did happen in the original series, it wouldn't matter since Rebuild is it's own continuity.


This, regarding NGE canon, but still somewhat relevant (an actual Theory and Analysis article regarding the Hell Train will be written up at some point).

Also, I'm in agreement with what Legendary said. Remember, we DID see a red GNR before 3rd Impact was botched by Kaworu.
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Postby The Goose » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:35 pm

If that theory is true, then Rei still couldn't have known that that music player used to belong to Gendo because if the Rei that Shinji was talking to was timehopping then that Rei would be from the future. Therefore, the Rei who exists in the now of the second film of Rebuild still wouldn't know because she wouldn't have traveled to the past where Shinji was on the helltrain until sometime in the future. Which means the Rei, who hasn't yet traveled back in time, took Shinji's music player because she only knows that the music player is Shinji's, associates it only with Shinji, and takes it to remember him when he leaves NERV.

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Postby Legendary » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:49 pm

I have no idea what's actually being discussed here, by the by. Just addressing a question.

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Postby yourmom » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:05 am

View Original PostThe Goose wrote:Do you have any evidence proving your theory?

Oh hey, there actually is something resembling evidence.
In 1.0, Rei sits outside Shinji's medical room thingy with a satchel:
[URL=http://img91.imageshack.us/i/bag0.jpg/]Image[/URL][URL=http://img401.imageshack.us/i/bag1h.jpg/]Image[/URL]

I dunno what she's got there, maybe the book she's reading in the room later. Not really important though!

In helltrain, Rei shows up holding...
wait for it
a very similar looking satchel:
[URL=http://img17.imageshack.us/i/bag2m.jpg/]Image[/URL]


And gee wiz, the satchel is still around in the medical room:

[URL=http://img13.imageshack.us/i/bag3cw.jpg/]Image[/URL][URL=http://img231.imageshack.us/i/bag4m.jpg/]Image[/URL]


For all we know, bookend Rei, too, could be lugging a satchel around for whatever reason, but to me it seems like it's being used here specifically for consistency's sake.

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Postby The Goose » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:31 am

What I meant by evidence is an example of Rei remembering something from Shinji's helltrain.

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Postby ehh123 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:57 am

Can we please get back on topic? :facepalm: This is not going as well as I hoped it would.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:21 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:The only way the Rei Shinji encountered in the hell trains in the original series could be real is if it's GNR timehopping, which she's almost definitely done twice

I don't think that GNR timehopping is the only plausible explanation. Maybe Rei has telepathic powers by nature. Of course...

View Original PostThe Goose wrote:What I meant by evidence is an example of Rei remembering something from Shinji's helltrain.

...just like for my above statement, i can't provide hard evidence, just as no one can disprove my theories completely. A lot of things depend on interpretation. For example, i could cite the way she stares at the tape player in the trash heap as evidence of her remebering the conversation about it from the helltrain, but then, someone could put a different spin on it, and then we are back at square one.

EDIT:
Mostly because, as i have whined about it many times, the movie didn't really get into people's heads aside from Shinji and Gendo for a little bit.

View Original Postehh123 wrote:Can we please get back on topic? :facepalm: This is not going as well as I hoped it would.

There is discussio about the story goning on. Lock, Split, Fail?
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Postby carla » Tue May 04, 2010 12:23 pm

*groans* i had a really complete reply ready to post here... and then my computer decided to restart. :headdesk: well, i guess you're lucky, 'cause now this post will be much shorter than it originally was.

anyway, as a response to the initial question, i was going to say... yes, there have been many changes done to the characters. Shinji is the most obvious one, what with his new, shiny rebuild!balls. also, they seem to have made him more of a "caretaker" in a sense, especially when it comes to Rei. it's not entirely out of the blue-- we could sort of see it in NGE, but since he was always all "you don't care about me so i won't care about you!" it never really went anywhere. interestingly enough, i feel like both of these changes come from the same place: people just aren't hurting him as much-- well, gendo did, but at least his relationships with Misato and Rei (and later Asuka) are nowhere near as messy as they were in NGE, and since they're not hurting him, he feels like he can let himself care about them. similarly, once he cares about them, he knows he has something to lose, hence the new backbone.

as for Asuka, she's clearly a lot less messed up than she was, and i for one like it. see, Asuka's always been my favorite character, mostly because i feel i can relate to her personality-- i have plenty tsundereish tendencies myself, so i could see myself reacting the same way she did in many situations. but then when i got to thinking about why she became that way, wow, i just felt like such a poser. :sweatdrop: it's like "okay, she's that way because her mother went crazy and killed herself right in front of her. so why are you like that?" at points it was almost like you could just erase kyoko's memory from her head and, ta-da, Asuka would become a completely well-adjusted, sweet girl. fanfic writers certainly had a field day with that idea-- i never liked that. i don't like insta-solutions; think EoE, she finds her mother in unit-02 and suddenly all's right with the world. NOT. that just never sat well with me.

rebuild!Asuka, on the other hand, seems like she doesn't have the kyoko backstory, but she's still arrogant, and proud, and puts up a front... because that's who she is. she may have a completely different backstory, and she turned out much the same. so in a sense, that makes her a little more... relatable, i guess, to other people and to me personally. you may still have your issues, you may still be imperfect, and you may still have problems relating to other people, even if your moder didn't go and kill yourself in front of you.

so i really like both asukas: NGE!Asuka, because she taught me that my problems will never be near as horrible as they could be, so i should be grateful for that. rebuild!Asuka, because she gives me a closer image to relate to. and we still don't know if there's something bad in her backstory (it's certainly been hinted), so that also keeps us on our toes when it comes to her.

Rei genuinely surprised me. i never really liked her in NGE, i always felt she was a bit flat, and i really wanted her to want to be normal, but she always seemed fine, or more like resigned to being who she was, or moreover what she was. and she asked questions, and had meaningful interactions with other people, but later on it'd be like "oh... ok." i wanted her to want to understand. i wanted her to take steps toward change. but she never really broke out of gendo's hold until way later into the series, when it became painfully clear that she was being used. what i like about Rei in rebuild is that she seems to have this genuine curiosity about people and the way they interact. she wants to understand them, and she wants to be like them. she knows she can be replaced, but she seems to want to reach out, and actively steps away from just being... there. i don't know if i'm getting my point across, but it's that curiosity she has in rebuild that has surprisingly endeared me to her as a character.

as for Misato, i'm sad she didn't get as much airtime in 2.0 :dejected: she seems to be taking on more of an older sister role, as opposed to the mess she had with Shinji in the original series. but then again, we haven't really heard much about her backstory save for a few moments here and there, so who knows. it's too early to tell if things will turn around.

i wish we could see more of the stooges and the class rep, but i guess with the time constraint they may not have seen much need for them. on the other hand, i love that we got to see more of super-spy!Kaji, because he's just awesome :thumbsup: and ironically enough, i'm liking kaworu a lot so far. i didn't care for him either way in NGE, but this time around, with his appearance from the beginning, he seems almost like he's teasing us on purpose, and i love that. he knows things, and he dangles that knowledge in our faces just for the lulz. i love it. :chuckles:

thing is, with all these changes, i don't think it's possible to say if they're "improvements" or not. i mean, they ARE improvements in the sense that mostly everybody seems better adjusted, but does that make them better than they were? i just think it's not comparable.

similarly, i don't think i can say whether the plot has "improved" or not. personally, i love the addition of mari-- it suggests that there's some other faction involved in the conspiracy, which i find ver interesting. but other than that, it's hard to say whether this plot is better or not-- most likely it's impossible to say that, given how different things are. moreover, it's still early on in the series, and to be honest i'm still expecting anno to pull the rug from under us soon. so i think i'll reserve my judgment until all the movies are done.
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Postby HENRCAST » Wed May 26, 2010 8:02 pm

I just watched it, and I truly believe there have been improvements, but not to the characters.
Firstly, I'd like to say I absolutely loved the movie... It was surprisingly intense, and we finally got to see Toji's sister!
As far as complaints go, I think most of the characters didn't have enough screentime. That's specially true about Asuka, who I wished had a bigger part, (she is my favorite character, after all) even though she had some truly amazing moments in the movie.
Also, the sometimes pointless fanservice was annoying.

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Re: Story and Character Improvements (SPOILERS)

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Postby NemZ » Wed May 26, 2010 10:16 pm

View Original Postehh123 wrote:improvements in story and characters in comparison to NGE so far, what are they?


Despite the fact that we still don't have the slightest idea what her deal is, Mari is much better defined than she was in the series.

Seriously though, I'm not at all impressed yet from any perspective other than "Ooh, look at all the shiny!"
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Postby Seph » Thu May 27, 2010 2:36 pm

I seriously think we should all refrain from commenting on this until NME is over.

At the very least, if you are going to compare NME to the series, only compare it to episodes 1-19, as that's where we are on the timeline.

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Postby Jinroh » Thu May 27, 2010 3:41 pm

View Original PostHENRCAST wrote:Also, the sometimes pointless fanservice was annoying.

Fanservice is never pointless. It's all around in summer.

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Postby IkariRei » Thu May 27, 2010 4:48 pm

The only thing i count as improvement are the Angels. They are SO much more badass they made the battles for me so intense i felt i was watching them for the very first time. :kensuke_drool:

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Postby Hiten777 » Thu May 27, 2010 11:23 pm

I believe that the story and character improvements symbolize Anno's willingness to go back and analyze his former feelings in Eva. Anno was going through a rough time during the creation of NGE and all of the negative emotional protrayal was what made Eva such an awesome and beautiful plotted anime. Now it seems he's going back in his new emotional state and give the anime and characters a chance at a better future.
All the character developments - Shinji, Rei, Asuka, etc. - have been changed to the point where it seems like they are ironically battling their demons from the original series. The polt itself could be either a sequel or an alternate possibility to the end of Eva. Either way, the new material is what gives fans the "Dang, I never saw that coming."


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