Possible Theory and Analysis page for Montages

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Possible Theory and Analysis page for Montages

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Postby ran1 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:08 pm

I just finished writing a research paper outlining the use of montage throughout the history of cinema by asessing the techniques of several great film directors, but with my focus on Eisenstein, Peckinpah, and Godard.

While the material I've learned is still fresh in my mind, I would like to get permission, if possible, to write a Theory and Analysis page breaking down and possibly commentating on Evangelion's montage sequences most notably used in Episode 14, 22 and the End of Evangelion.

To help illuminate what I want to do and the classical cinematic interpretation methods I want to use, this text by the godfather of montage, Eisenstein himself, would probably be the best introduction:

A Dialectic Approach to Film Form

Methods such as Eisenstein's montage are essentially the playbook any modern filmmaker has knowledge of when making a film, and I am sure the same would go for an animation director, because editing techniques in both live-action cinema and animation share many common features.

I figure once I have my full outline of the article done, I'll submit it to the relevant staff for approval, and probably put it on the Discussion page for other members to chime in, but I would preferably like the approval of the staff before I start working on the project.

If anyone else is interested in helping, I'd be glad to cooperate as well.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:00 pm

It sounds interesting, and bring to mind that aside from a theory and analyis section the wiki also needs an essay section for miscellaneous material such as this. That is, material viewing Evangelion from different perspective and in different context; in this case, from the perspective of cinematography. In fact, I don't think there has been very much serious interpretation of the cinematography of Evangelion, inside or outside the context of analysis.

Since the essay is intended to end up on the wiki anyway, I've added you to the userpage group so that you can edit your user page. Put the draft of the essay and we'll see how it works out. It would be nice to see scenes in Evangelion discussed from a new perspective.

If you require screenshots, let us know. If you need to upload screenshots, just be sure to put them in the right episode category. Good luck with the essay.
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Postby ran1 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:07 pm

I'll put up a basic outline of what I want to accomplish with the essay on the userpage by the end of this week, and I plan on starting the essay in its entirety this weekend. Thanks!
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Re: Possible Theory and Analysis page for Montages

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Postby ath » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:06 am

ran1 wrote:Evangelion's montage sequences most notably used in Episode 14, 22 and the End of Evangelion.

I still have around the full-size screenshots grabbed for the commentary pages on episodes 5-15 and 20-26. If you need any, just ask.

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Postby ran1 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:24 pm

I just wrote up a little introduction of about 400 words. I suppose it will act like a little preface for the actual article.

ath wrote:I still have around the full-size screenshots grabbed for the commentary pages on episodes 5-15 and 20-26. If you need any, just ask.


That would be a huge help. Thank you very much. I'll contact you as soon as I need the images-- I want to get the text completed first.
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Postby ran1 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:32 pm

double posting due to update. Added an Eva-themed application of montage theory. I'm thinking that I should probably make them a tad smaller, though, or move the text around. any input is appreciated.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:49 am

The example shots are a little large. Image placement is always a problem with Mediaiwiki as it's not really designed to handle images. There are a few options here.

The images could simply be made smaller. This will probably have to be done anyway. However, placing them as is will leave considerable white-space which tends to look amiss. The images can be floated left and right to blend in a little better with the text, but this is hard to keep track of and tends to break if left to run on for too long

Alternatively, you can use the wiki's MontageBox template to group images into one box, as seen here. The following code produces something akin to what you might use.
[code:1]
{{MontageBox
|float = left
|columns = 3
|title = ''Montage Sequence''
|image1 = [[File:22 C154 dc.jpg|300px]]
|image2 = [[File:22 C156 dc.jpg|300px]]
|image3 = [[File:22 C160 dc 3.jpg|300px]]
|caption =
''Episode #22 Cuts''
* A)
* B)
* C)
}}
[/code:1]

Once the images are placed, you can refer to them as images a), b) c) and so on. The MontageBox is flexible enough to handle very large sequences of images.

The cuts shown in the example seem to be displaced slightly from one another in the actual episode; that is, there are intervening cuts. I suspect you have been restricted here by the lack of pertinent screenshots on the wiki. I'll try and upload others from this sequence if you need them.

I'd like to see how montage theory plays out in some of the more surreal dreamscape sequences in Evangelion. Do you think the director is setting up a montage in such sequences, with cuts leading up to a final "payoff" shot?
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Postby ran1 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:09 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreaks wrote:Once the images are placed, you can refer to them as images a), b) c) and so on. The MontageBox is flexible enough to handle very large sequences of images


Ah, awersome. I'll get on that ASAP.

The cuts shown in the example seem to be displaced slightly from one another in the actual episode; that is, there are intervening cuts. I suspect you have been restricted here by the lack of pertinent screenshots on the wiki. I'll try and upload others from this sequence if you need them.


Yes, I was, and I was a tad wary about adding the images because I figured it would be an "admin privilege". I was actually planning to ask about uploading a few more shots today.

I'd like to see how montage theory plays out in some of the more surreal dreamscape sequences in Evangelion. Do you think the director is setting up a montage in such sequences, with cuts leading up to a final "payoff" shot?


In 22 and EoE, my conclusion is yes. It appears Anno had a specific payoff shot in mind, and with EoE, he had several payoff shots in mind.

In Episode 14, however, I am still attempting some more in-depth analysis. There are several "important" shots in the montages, but they are, well, oddly placed, let's say. I'm still attempting to determine whether or not they are actually payoff shots, however.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:23 pm

I'm not sure where the threads are (or whether they were from here or from ANF) but I remember a few discussions about the crayon kid's drawings from EoE being discussed with little results. Not sure how useful that'll be for you (especially considering I can't find the threads).

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Postby ran1 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:32 pm

Ornette wrote:I'm not sure where the threads are (or whether they were from here or from ANF) but I remember a few discussions about the crayon kid's drawings from EoE being discussed with little results. Not sure how useful that'll be for you (especially considering I can't find the threads).


Oh? Is that so? I had an interpretation for them. They're not the payoff shots, or really have much meaning on their own, but their actually quite interesting pieces when looked at in context of the entire montage.
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Postby ran1 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:18 pm

Double posting because I just completed posting a portion of my montage theory, specifically the ones that Ornette got me. My theory leans heavily to a re-asessment of Episode 22 entirely, but I think that it has some merit to it both in Freudian sense and it the original sense of Eisensteinian montage.

So long as the theories seem at least a little bit sound, I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to open a discussion thread about them?
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:30 am

ran1 wrote:Yes, I was, and I was a tad wary about adding the images because I figured it would be an "admin privilege". I was actually planning to ask about uploading a few more shots today.

Upload away. Just try to make sure they're in the right categories. In addition, try to keep the images a small(in KBs) as possible without compromising quality. Generally <80KB is good. We had some guidelines on the dimensions of images once, but I think they've fallen by the wayside. Try and gauge an appropriate size from existing screenshots. (The sizes of the images you've already uploaded are actually fine, they just need to be put into the Episode #22' screenshot category)

ran1 wrote:So long as the theories seem at least a little bit sound, I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to open a discussion thread about them?

I eagerly await this thread. The material you have here is already a facinating analysis of the flashign images at least. I think flashing image analysis would be a great topic for the thread.

So you know, you can use wiki images directly in forum discussion with the wkimg template. The following code produces the images below it
[code:1]
[wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 01.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 02.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 03.jpg[/wkimg]

[wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 04.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 05.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 06.jpg[/wkimg]
[/code:1]

[wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 01.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 02.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 03.jpg[/wkimg]

[wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 04.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 05.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=200]Ep22 Asuka montage 06.jpg[/wkimg]

I think the material you have would make for a great topic. Hopefully the discussion in the thread can be incorporated into the essay as well.
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Postby ran1 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:45 pm

I plan on cleaning up the article a bit, but I just have a quick question: do you want to move all the other Episode 22 material to its own article prior to me starting on an article for EoE, or should I just keep plugging along on the userpage? Just curious.
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Postby Ornette » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:57 pm

I'll probably depend on how big the final article is. If it's not too, big, the entire article can cover montages in the show. On the other hand, if the articles are really big, we could put each montage in its own article, and then making a category or something for them.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:15 pm

If the essay is long, I'm thinking that it could form the core of an essay or interpretation section on the wiki. A place where more specialised, personal, or subjective interpretations of the show can be placed. Essentially a place to host long introspective on Evangelion. It's something we originally discussed, but never got around to implementing.

I'd appreciate if others could weight in on this idea. What other essays do we have in our inventory that could join this one in seeding the section?
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Postby ran1 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:43 pm

Considering that the Episode 22 flash-sign montages seem to be interesting little tools to assess the Asuka/Shinji relationship from Asuka's subconscious, would it be permissable to add a little abstract on the "Asuka/Shinji Relationship" Theory & Analysis page as well, or is a bit too premature to make any definitive claims based on the research so far?
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:09 pm

I so think a brief mention of the montage sequences are in order. While I don't think it should go into too much depth on the Shinji and Asuka page, I think the fact that their relationship is featured so heavily in the sequences is worthy of mention on the Shinji and Asuka theory page. Perhaps others could comment on this?
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Postby ran1 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:05 pm

In regard to others' interpretations of the montages:

I'm in no way claiming to be an authority on the use of montage in Eva. I am appyling some of the general theories of it on the montages in order to ascertain a deeper meaning. That being said, I'd like very much to include a section after my interpretation for other opinions on the montages, if not assume them into the section entirely. I'm just wondering, how is the best way to go about doing something like that? I was just considering adding them under my own interpretation, if that is okay.

And considering that I haven't seen anyone take issue with the additon of the montages on the Shinji/Asuka page, I'll start on them now and then get back to taking care of the retake pages.
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