Was emo Shinji becoming AN HERO in 25'?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:48 am

Toji's normal as far as the pilots are concerned--he said himself Eva pilots are weirdos. :wink:

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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:23 am

lol i guess so...

although agreeing to pilot an eva is a death wish in itself lol
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Postby Merridian » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:46 pm

skikes wrote:Shinji - Tried to drown himself
Asuka - Cut her wrists
Rei - Blew herself up
Kaworu - Let himself be smushed by Unit 01
Touji - ?

Really Touji's the non-suicidal one?
Which is kinda interesting considering also that Toji wasn't piloting Eva for explicitly selfish motives, unlike the other three (Kaworu's brief tenure doesn't really count as piloting).

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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:59 pm

I don't see how Rei's motives are at all selfish. Everything she ever did was for the sake of other people, with pretty much zero investment in her own safety, health, wants and needs.

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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:26 pm

Rei did it to make gendo happy. When she stopped wanting to make him happy she stopped doing it.

It's somewhat selfish to make someone happy because it makes you happy.

I mean, if it didnt make touji happy to see his sister being looked after, he never would have agreed to pilot.

But thats just the human condition and the "are there any truely selfless acts" debate.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:27 pm

skikes wrote:Rei did it to make gendo happy. When she stopped wanting to make him happy she stopped doing it.


Didn't she say "I want to protect Ikari?"
Ikari, referring to Shinji.

My memory is a little foggy on that scene.
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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:45 pm

I believe she did... but this is just my point.

This is when her interest began moving away from gendo and toward Shinji. Eventually culminating in her leaving gendo when he needed her most because he wasn't her interest any more. She stopped wanting to make him happy.

She had been with him for many years. Taken his orders for many years. Long before Shinji arrived. All to make him happy. But ultimately, to make herself happy.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:55 pm

To clarify, Rei 2 was only around from 2014 the earliest given how Toji and Kensuke say joined their school in 7th grade. Rei 1 died in 2010 according to the script.

But yeah, personally I see Rei as being selfless in regards to wanting to make others happy and put their needs above hers.
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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:09 pm

Huh? Just because she wasn't at school doesn't mean she wasn't alive... Rei never really was one for school even when she was enrolled. Assuming you mean 'alive' when you say 'around'.

And besides i'm one of those that believe all 3 Rei's are the same Rei... same soul, different body.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:47 pm

Er, I never said they weren't the same Rei, though part of Rei's soul as Rei 1 is in Eva-00. I'm saying the series implies Rei 2 wasn't alive for a long period of time.

Anyway this is getting off the topic of mainly Shinji and suicide, though I do wonder what people think of this (another unanswered question of mine).

I wrote:Now, is there anything to suggest the shots of Misato's gun and her looking exhausted/upset in 23' or 24' (I forget which episode, but it's after Misato says she accepted Kaji's feelings for her) implies Misato entertained the thought of suicide (before she came to terms Kaji's death)?


After Ritsuko's rape and she realizes she was sent in place of Rei, we have this scene:

TEXT:
Sorry, but don't bother me.
Working

Kaji (VOICE RECORDING):
This is a part of the truth that you wanted.
I devised thirty-six other ways to send it to you,
but you probably won't get them.
The only definite one is this capsule.
This is everything I have to offer.
Do with it as you see fit.
The password is our very first memory together.
Bye, take care.

Misato:
The phone that won't ring, I won't let it irritate me anymore.
Because I've accepted your feelings.

At one point, there's a shot of Misato looking tired as well as a shot of Misato's gun. Does that seem to imply she was considering suicide up to that point, or is it ambiguous similar to
Rebuild 1.0  SPOILER: Show
Shinji and the bridge with the MIBs following him
or what?
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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:58 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:
After Ritsuko's rape...


this is why i dont post here more often :hohum:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:20 pm

...I take it you never read the analysis of how the Japanese word Seele used to Ritsuko for "disgrace" also means "rape"? And I find it hard to believe that she's just standing around naked because Seele are a bunch of perverts getting a peep-show (also considering her break-down at the end of the episode and yelling at Gendo next episode) but that's a topic for this original thread or this Discussion subforum thread, not here.
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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:56 pm

Ah yes, but did you know the word for disgraced also means disgraced. hmmm yes interesting :shh:

Ya know what i am gonna go post in that thread because this idea is just so ridiculous and people are just stating it like its fact like a bunch of amanda winn lee clones or something.
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Postby backseatjesus » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm

skikes wrote:Ah yes, but did you know the word for disgraced also means disgraced. hmmm yes interesting :shh:

Why else would she be nude? A strip search wouldn't explain why she'd still be nude.

Sorry for the off topic question, but I really wanna know what you think.

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Postby Great Genius Shinji-Sama » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:44 pm

Saibusu, saibusu of course! :chuckles:
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:26 pm

I like to take the opportunity in this thread to lay out in detail an argument for Shinji's suicide attempt at the beginning of End of Evangelion. Clearly, there is a great deal of ambiguity here. However, I believe there is considerable circumstantial evidence for this interpretation. This argument is a little long, so I'll split it into three posts for easier reading.

To begin, as already mentioned by Sailor Star Dust and Mr. Tines, Shinji has already attempted suicide at least once before, but failed to commit the act itself. For particular note here, as mentioned previously and in the commentary cut, are Anno's own words about Shinji:
Hideaki Anno wrote:A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and so he has convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide.

So we at least know that thoughts of suicide weigh on Shinji's mind, even if he cannot bring himself to complete the act. Yet.

But this was in episode #04. Is Shinji still so depressed in End of Evangelion? I think it is clear that he is even worse in #25' that he was in #04. The scene with the JSSDF soldiers comes to the fore here. While he may not be able to do the deed himself, Shinji is more than willing to passively allow himself to be executed without incident. His listless and apathetic posture and behaviour throughout the episode reveals someone in a state of deepest depression. He only want to "curl up and die" at this point.

However, before examining the supposed suicide attempt at the beginning of End of Evangelion, a clear point must be established without which the events of End of Evangelion and the End of TV cannot be seen in their proper perspective. That is the following:

Third Impact is an allegory for Shinji's final, executed, suicide attempt.

While there is not time here to lay out this point in full, a few key points can be noted. Firstly, we have Fuyutsuki's word in End of Evangelion, spelling out who is in control of the proceedings
Episode #26' wrote:Image
Fututsuki:
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

Shinji is the one making the decisions during Third Impact. But what does he decide to do here? His dialogue with Rei during Pre-3I complementation spells his decision out in full.
Episode #26' wrote:Shinji: Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.

Rei: Then, what are those hands for?

Shinji: Nobody cares whether I exist or not... Nothing will change.
So, everybody just die.

Rei: Then, what is that heart for?

Shinji: It'd be better if I wasn't here either. So I should just die, too.

After Asuka's rejection of him, Shinji's despair and bitterness reaches its peak, and he decides to end himself and the world along with him. His decision here is what sets off Third Impact in truth. Later, he comes to reflect on this decision and chooses not to join complementation, rejecting suicide and deciding to try and exist in the real world, despite the fact that it might be painful.
Episode #26' wrote:Shinji:
I feel that there were only hateful things there.
So I'm sure it was okay to run away.
But there was nothing good in the place I ran to, either.
After all, I didn't exist there... which is the same as no one existing.

"Running away" is used here as euphemism for suicide, which by the end of Third Impact, Shinji has rejected.

These points from End of Evangelion serve to demonstrate the allegorical nature of the proceedings. The events of #26' are essentially Shinji's final suicide attempt. The End of TV, episodes #25 and #26, present a more abstract narrative, however, much the same themes are present and indeed, EoTV is also an allegory for Shinji suicide, or at the very least, an extended introspective on such thoughts.
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Postby skikes » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:27 pm

backseatjesus wrote:
skikes wrote:Ah yes, but did you know the word for disgraced also means disgraced. hmmm yes interesting :shh:

Why else would she be nude? A strip search wouldn't explain why she'd still be nude.

Sorry for the off topic question, but I really wanna know what you think.


replied to this in the second link provided by stardust.
Last edited by skikes on Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:27 pm

To argue on Shinji's suicide attempt at the lake, we must see his actions in EoE in light of this allegory. But in addition, we must also examine them in the light of concurrency between the two endings. While my position in this post is that of Strong Concurrency, the arguments here are also compatible with Weak Concurrency as long as the allegory of suicide, and Shinji's ultimate rejection of it, is accepted.

So, given Shinji's suicidal state in EoE, and assuming concurrency, the best evidence for Shinji's suicide attempt at the lake comes from EoTV.

First, we must remember what Shinji is doing at the lake. At the end of episode #24' we have Shinji and Misato at the lake shore late at night, discussing Kaworu's death and Shinji's part in it.
Episode #24 wrote:Image
Larger version

Note in particular here the misty rubble strewn shore in this picture. In fact, this precise shot is used again near the beginning of EoTV #25. As seen earlier in episode #24', owing to the incident in #23', Shinji is now afraid to go home with Misato, and in fact stays by lake shore all night, consumed by guilt after killing Kaworu. This is the very lakeside where we later find him at the beginning of EoE.

For now, lets move to the end of EoTV, to the end of episode #26, where Shinji makes his decision to reject suicide.

Throughout EoTV, Shinji declares his dilemma of abandonment and isolation, but is reminded that it is a false one that he has imposed on himself. We are shown Shinji in the bare stage room in which he has isolated himself; the place he has run away to. He is eventually convinced that even though life is not perfect or even easy "running away", i.e. suicide, solves nothing.
Episode #26 wrote:Image
Shinji: I hate myself.

Shinji & Asuka & Misato: But maybe I can learn to love myself.

Shinji:
Maybe it's okay for me to be here!
That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less!
I'm me.
I want to be me!
I want to be here!
And it's okay for me to be here!


Note that at the beginning of this sequence, the bare stage is shown with its floor as a misty, debris strewn landscape. The debris appears to be dead trees and/or broken lampposts. In addition, this misty landscape is blown away at the moment of Shinji's final revelation that it is "OK" for him to "be here", i.e. continue existing.
Image
I would argue that this misty imagery represents Shinji's suicidal thoughts. Thoughts that haunt him, even in his enclosed stage world, and which he ultimately rejects, in both endings. The mist here serves as a visual metaphor for Shinji's state of mind.

Is there any additional evidence for this interpretation of the misty landscape. I would argue there is; in episode #04, where we know from the script that Shinji was indeed attempting — or at the very least contemplating — suicide. If we look at the mountain landscape where Shinji went in #04, we can see that the morning fog was blowing up the mountainside.
Image
And indeed, at the suicide spot, we again see the misty fog.
Image
Could this indeed be the moment when mist and perhaps trees became associated with suicide in Shinji's mind? Perhaps. But in any case, we have at least one independent piece of evidence for mist representing suicide.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:29 pm

With this meaning of the mist imagery established, we can now return to episode #25 and the lake side scene at the beginning of the episode, which is the very same shot as in #24', and again with a misty landscape present.
Image
Immediately following this repeat of the lake scene, we have a slightly psychedelic sequence with Shinji questioning Misato's justification of his actions and finally brooding once again on Gendou's abandonment of him.

Following this, we are presented with a very strange and surreal, but important sequence. Shinji is shown in a seemingly endless misty landscape, again strewn with dead trees
Image
Note also the music in this sequence, which is a highly foreboding and eerie theme. (Does anyone know if it appears anywhere else in the series?)

Consider that, wherever Shinji is here, he has some impression of Misato being, or having recently been close by.
Episode #25 wrote:Shinji:
Where am I?
Where am I supposed to go?
I can't see anything. I don't know what's what.
Miss Misato?
Miss Misato?!
Hey, where did you go, Miss Misato?
Hey, where am I supposed to go now?

He notices that Misato is gone and he is alone. Since Misato was recently shown standing next to him at the lake shore, I would argue that Shinji is still there, where he waited all night, and that this scene is metaphor for his attempted suicide at the lake, which we are shown in EoE.

Note also that at this point, when Shinji turns around to look for Misato and call for help, he is seen to be waist deep or more in the mist.
Image
Unlike his standing on the mist #26, and sitting over it in #04, we have Shinji almost swallowed up by the endless fog. If the misty landscape represents suicidal thoughts, then surely this is Shinji on the brink of the act, if not in an attempt itself.

Finally, as a tentative piece of parting evidence, It might be said that there is a similarity between the shot of Shinji in the mist in #25 and that of his dripping head in #25'.

Image Image

I would hold that, using concurrency and connecting the visual imagery in these various scenes, Shinji's attempted suicide in #25' can be inferred. I would argue that Shinji, upon killing Kaworu, sunk into a deep depression. After his conversation with Misato in #24', as he was still afraid to go home with her, he stayed all night at the lakeside, and there, consumed by guilt and remorse, attempted to kill himself by drowning(What bearing might Shinji's aversion to swimming have here?). This attempt was alluded to in #25 via the misty landscape imagery, which was later used in #26 to represent Shinji's ultimate rejection of suicide. The End of Evangelion begins in the morning of the day after Kaworu's death, and so does not overtly show the attempt, but only hints at it by showing Shinji's dripping hair.

That's my argument for the plausibility of Shinji's suicide attempt at the lake between #24' and #25' (and during #25). It relies on Third Impact being Shinji's allegorical suicide, concurrency (weak or strong), and the meaning of the mist imagery. We don't have direct evidence for a suicide attempt, but I'd argue there is enough circumstantial evidence to conclusively show that this was the intended meaning of these scenes.

Thought or comments on all this are appreciated.
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Postby Lucretius » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:02 pm

:rei_meh:

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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