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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:27 am

Zugzwang wrote:Lilith shares the same root as Leliel, so they both mean night. Adam means man or earth - should the N/As for both of those be replaced with this info. or should each symbol rely on what is said about them in official NGE sources?

NGE sources. Should probably note somewhere where those "symbols" actually come from, too... I'd wanted to turn the "N/A" for Lilith and Adam into actual omitted rows, but I never got around to figuring out how to do that.

The name that seems unresolvable to me is Tabris, simply because I've never come across a name of an angel like that.

"Tabris" (that exact spelling) has an entry right in A Dictionary of Angels. None of the alternate spellings are mentioned (which is strange, since DoA usually has a boner for those).

Ursus wrote:It should be noted that this spelling comes from the Manga and Chronicle, since we don't get to see Kaworu's name spelt out in the Anime. It's possible that this is a goof on their part.

Since "Tabris" apparently does show up in the literature using that actual spelling, I doubt it.

Also, Manga and Chronicle were hardly the first places. The Vol. 7 tankouban was released in 2001 ("Tabris" appeared in the last collected phase). In contrast, the Newtype Book Adam: Soldier at the 2015 A.D. (lol), includes "Tabris" and was published as early as 1996/10/15. There may have been earlier mentions, but I don't have any handy. For all I know, it was first published in a Newtype article.

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Postby Zuggy » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:20 pm

Does this Dictionary of Angels list the actual sources for the name though? If not, then if you notice any other angels that end with IS or IAS I would like to hear about them so I can compare. The closest thing to IS I can find in my lexicon/dictionary is (A)ISh which is the more modern word for 'man.'

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:31 pm

The Dictionary of Angels (Davidson) wrote:Tabris—in occult lore, the angel or genius of free will, and one of the genii of the 6th hour. [Rf. Apollonius of Tyana, The Nuctemeron.]

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Postby Zuggy » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:50 pm

I've only heard of The Nuctemeron and haven't read it, but I imagine it's a grimoire written in Greek (judging from the author). Hopefully it still retains the Hebrew spelling of each name within it.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:30 pm

If you have some way of looking more deeply, the full bibliographic entry reads:

Apollonius of Tyana. The Nuctemeron. In Levi, Transcendental Magic. Philadelphia: McKay, 1923.

Sounds like the Nuctemeron itself wasn't directly available to Davidson, so he listed the earliest citation he had.

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Postby Zuggy » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:42 pm

Aye, it isn't in my copy of Transcendental Magic (if that means Dogma et Magie... however the rest of it goes), it must've been included as one of the appendices which I know my edition lacks.

There are a few online versions of this grimoire in French. The names of the genies of the sixth hour don't look like Hebrew at all:

Tabris
Susabo
Eirnilus
Nitika
Haatan
Hatiphas
Zaren

There are some names in the text that have echoes of Hebrew like Sachluph, Alphun, Sablil, Schachlil, Risnuch, but most of them have that sort of look to them that you find in lots of medieval texts that list the names of spirits, they use bits of Latin or Greek-sounding stuff to sound authoritive amongst exotic-sounding words, so you have names in this text like Suphlatus and Hatiphas.

I don't know when this text was written, but a lot of it has a lateish-medieval look to it that you find in other grimoires from the same time-frame (not that I'm an expert or anything).

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:16 pm

:headsmack:

Of course, Tabris is not a proper Hebrew Angel. Jeez!

A genie(djinn) is Arabic in origin, isn't it?
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Postby Zuggy » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:33 am

UrsusArctos wrote:Of course, Tabris is not a proper Hebrew Angel. Jeez!

Then why did you post this previously? -

UrsusArctos wrote:"Tabris" is a corruption of "Tabrias", reportedly meaning "Good of God". (ias...that's a Yah theophony over there)

What is the source of this information then? Where does the information that Tabr means good come from? What actual information is there about ias/is being a form of yah, as I've never heard of anything like that before. I feel as though you have been wasting my time.

UrsusArctos wrote:A genie(djinn) is Arabic in origin, isn't it?

That doesn't mean anything here. All the names of the various geniuses in this Nuctermeron were almost certainly divined by the magician who wrote it, they read like the typical mash-ups you get in other grimoires and don't mean anything. Sometimes there are echoes of actual names in them however.

It certainly wasn't written by the actual Apollonius, it's like all those works that say they are authored by King Solomon, but are in reality only attributed to him/written in the spirit of him, or they simply say they are written by him to give themselves more authority in the minds of those reading them. There is no information concerning this text prior to Levi's publishing.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:56 am

Zugzwang wrote:Then why did you post this previously? -

UrsusArctos wrote:"Tabris" is a corruption of "Tabrias", reportedly meaning "Good of God". (ias...that's a Yah theophony over there)

What is the source of this information then? Where does the information that Tabr means good come from? What actual information is there about ias/is being a form of yah, as I've never heard of anything like that before. I feel as though you have been wasting my time.


Because I realized I'd got it off Wikipedia or some other fansite that wasn't right, and then I remembered that a whole lot of the Angels- Israfel and Sahaquiel most prominently- are Arabic Angels and not Hebrew ones. That's why the "facepalm" was there...I realized I goofed. Sorry.
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Postby Reichu » Sun May 03, 2009 1:53 pm

Does anyone know what we should do about the "Moon Giant" before we find out what the hell it actually is? We need a writeup about it somewhere, but I'm not quite sure what article would be a good place to simply dump such a thing. A provisional "Moon Giant" article that would eventually become a redirect could be a possible answer.

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Postby Dartz » Sun May 03, 2009 2:03 pm

We don't know what it is....

Just that it's a giant, on the Moon. With constructions around it. A scar on it's stomach. The trench it's in is obviously specifically dug for the purpose, it's so regular. And Unit 06 comes down from the moon next episode, according to the original preview?

I think that's all.

Not really enough to write an article on though. Do we need the writeup immediately, or can it wait until we actually have an answer to the question? A provisional Moon Giant article wouldn't really be more than a stub at this stage, there's no real information to write up about it, just that it's there.

I don't really see the point in creating an article for it, until we know what it is yet.


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Postby Reichu » Sun May 03, 2009 2:15 pm

Dartz wrote:I don't really see the point in creating an article for it

The giant's attracted a lot of attention, for one thing. And even in the one image, there's certain details that people miss, which results in misconceptions and the need to constantly correct. I'd rather just dump that stuff onto a page so anyone can go see it easily.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun May 03, 2009 7:44 pm

Reichu wrote: A provisional "Moon Giant" article that would eventually become a redirect could be a possible answer.


This looks like the best course of action available.
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Postby thewayneiac » Tue May 05, 2009 8:07 pm

I'm not sure if this has ever come up before, but do the Angel pages really need the "Battle" sections? Wouldn't the proper episode pages be the the better home for this stuff?
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Postby Reichu » Tue May 05, 2009 9:37 pm

thewayneiac wrote:I'm not sure if this has ever come up before, but do the Angel pages really need the "Battle" sections? Wouldn't the proper episode pages be the the better home for this stuff?

They probably wouldn't stand to benefit from that rampant verbosity, either.

I think it would be appropriate to include a run-down of the events that Angel was involved in, but we're probably dealing with severe overkill on most if not all of the Angel pages. Hence the deconstruction templates I started putting up.

Also speaking of Angels, Adam's children have long needed a page devoted exclusively to their subgroup. I'm averse to just using the main "Angel" page for this because it's better to leave that page for dealing with the term's ambiguities. So then, what would the other page get called? "Angels (Adam's Children)"? Just "Adam's Children"? Is the term "children" too 'loaded'? (Pity Anno cut out the line in EoE where Misato actually uses the phrase "Adam's children"...)

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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue May 05, 2009 10:01 pm

I think it would be appropriate to include a run-down of the events that Angel was involved in, but we're probably dealing with severe overkill on most if not all of the Angel pages. Hence the deconstruction templates I started putting up.


Word.


Also speaking of Angels, Adam's children have long needed a page devoted exclusively to their subgroup. I'm averse to just using the main "Angel" page for this because it's better to leave that page for dealing with the term's ambiguities. So then, what would the other page get called? "Angels (Adam's Children)"? Just "Adam's Children"? Is the term "children" too 'loaded'? (Pity Anno cut out the line in EoE where Misato actually uses the phrase "Adam's children"...)


"Adam's Progeny" would do the job if "Children" is too loaded a term.
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Postby CyberXIII » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:13 pm

Should we create a uniform design for the Angels' respective pages? Things seem to be really, really random in terms of design.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:08 pm

Some of those pages need cleanup. We have more information on certain Angels than others, and that's another reason why there's so much of a change in layout.

All the same, what design did you have in mind?
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Postby CyberXIII » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:22 pm

I was considering something along the lines of Sachiel's page design being applied to the other Angels.

I'd use Zeruel as an example of this done right. Granted, there is a lot on that page, but 98.5% of it is necessary and valid. His Rebuild section still needs cleanup, but that's just because the movie came out a few days ago.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:28 pm

Good idea - Zeruel's page is one of the best pages because of the effort put into rectifying the original mess. I'm sure we can find enough imagery of the Angels from the show itself, but production drawings might have to wait.
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