Depressed from End of Evangelion

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Magami No ER [ANF]
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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:25 pm

Reichu wrote:Shinji: "Rei... I forgot, real life really DOES suck. Can you kill everyone again?"
Rei: "Sure, no problem. Anything for my little Shin-chan."

:SPLOOOOSH:

Yui: "Fsck. I shouldn't have been in such a hurry to leave..." :makes K-turn and heads back to Earth:

^Love it. Image (though I don't quite get the "K" turn part.

Originally posted on: 27-Dec-2004, 03:44 GMT

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Postby Grant Oldman [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:25 pm

thewayneiac wrote:Ummm....I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Shinji got 2 "do-overs", and that sometime after Asuka said "Kimochi warui" he re-started Instrumentality?!
Image


Hi,

Yes. The EoE story is Shinji shaken up & feeling betrayed by everyone, wanting to wipe out everyone so he is safe.

But it is just one reality that he can create, even as the alternate utopian one shown in TV26 is another. EoE is all in his mind, and everything is still in a state of flux. Shinji's solo attempt to make a world where he would be safe & happy crashed & burned. A train wreck. His attempt to strangle Asuka is reaction at failing & her disgust at the result.

In the "outside" reality (TV Complementation) Eva characters still seemingly alive & well, try to guide him back to the right decision, that Complementation is the only way to abolish human misery, and feeling real or not is a state of mind more than physical existence. Shinji, through the thought experiments in TV 26 realises this & decides to endorse Complementation.

(Of course Shinji could return the world to as it was, but tweaked, so the happy alternate reality we saw, would be the real one. Best of both worlds.)

Grant Oldman

Originally posted on: 27-Dec-2004, 20:51 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Shinji doesn't "endorse Complementation"; he endorses his value as an individual, which is something completely different.

Originally posted on: 27-Dec-2004, 13:33 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Grant Oldman wrote:Hi,

Yes. The EoE story is Shinji shaken up & feeling betrayed by everyone, wanting to wipe out everyone so he is safe.

But it is just one reality that he can create, even as the alternate utopian one shown in TV26 is another.


You are mis-interpreting the "This is one of many possible worlds" business. They are not saying that Shinji can create any world he wishes; they are saying that Shinji created this world through the decisions he made, and that different decisions on his (and other's) parts would have lead to different results. The power Shinji has been given is to either sign off on or veto instrumentality, not to create worlds. The alternate reality represents his realizing that he is capable of living a normal life and would have done so under different circumstances. This realization is powerful evidence that he is rejecting instrumentality. In no way does it represent a "third choice" in addition to reality or Instrumentality. (And plainly the alternate reality doesn't exist inside Instrumentality; it has individuals, which by definition don't exist there.)

EoE is all in his mind, and everything is still in a state of flux.


You've got this turned completely on it's head. Even the most fanatic "Shinji chose Instrumentality" fans acknowledge that EOE shows the physical reality of what's happening, while the TV ending shows the mental process of Instrumentality. Once Shinji bobs up to the surface of the LCL, he is back in reality and his days of determining the fate of the world are over.

Shinji's solo attempt to make a world where he would be safe & happy crashed & burned. A train wreck. His attempt to strangle Asuka is reaction at failing & her disgust at the result.


The EOE theatrical program says he strangled her in order to deliberately provoke a negative reaction, otherwise he wouldn't believe he was back in reality.

In the "outside" reality (TV Complementation) Eva characters still seemingly alive & well, try to guide him back to the right decision, that Complementation is the only way to abolish human misery, and feeling real or not is a state of mind more than physical existence. Shinji, through the thought experiments in TV 26 realises this & decides to endorse Complementation.


Once again EOE is the "outside reality"; EOTV is the mental process of complimentation. The others certainly are trying to guide him to the right decision, but I think you need to watch it again. Every step of Shinji's mental journey in EP. 26 is designed to demonstrate that he has worth as an individual, not has part of some conglomerate being. He ends the episode proclaiming his individuality: "I wan't to be me!", by definition this is incompatible with a decision to remain in Instrumentality.

(Of course Shinji could return the world to as it was, but tweaked, so the happy alternate reality we saw, would be the real one. Best of both worlds.)

Grant Oldman


No he couldn't. As I noted above, Shinji can't create worlds. The decisions that could have created that possible world were always out of his hands. It would have required different choices by his parents. His seeing a possible world that could no longer be was there to show him that it is possible for him to be happy in reality, and is the final nail in Instrumentality's coffin.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 08:06 GMT

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Postby NeonZ [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

(Of course Shinji could return the world to as it was, but tweaked, so the happy alternate reality we saw, would be the real one. Best of both worlds.)


"has bad RahXephon's flashbacks"

No. Just. No. That wouldn't be a happy ending, that'd be a false ending.

A whole brainwashed world(just look at Rei!) isn't happy, it's just a illusion, and, as already told, Shinji couldn't really create that world, it was just showing him a possibility.

Originally posted on: 27-Dec-2004, 21:44 GMT

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Postby sheaman [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

I have yet to watch it (i know, i know, school and no free time and lack of money and everything).

I'm going to go watch it soon with one of my friends, who can make jokes out of anything, hopefully that dcan take a little bit of the depression out of it.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 03:06 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Grant Oldman wrote:I fit EoE between TV 25 & 26.


I should also have pointed out that the movie is called HE END of Evangelion for a reason: the story is over when the movie ends. Episode 26 therefore can't come after the movie is over.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 03:19 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Well, one could always try arguing that EoTV does come after EoE, due to the 2015/2016 inconsistency...

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 21:12 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, one could always try arguing that EoTV does come after EoE, due to the 2015/2016 inconsistency...


Or you could say that as they don't say how long 3I lasted, it could very well have been 2016 by the time Shinji reembodied.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 22:00 GMT

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Postby Grant Oldman [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

The Red Cross Book states EoE is an alternative ending.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 22:01 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Grant Oldman wrote:The Red Cross Book states EoE is an alternative ending.
How so?

(RCB: Production Notes)
Episode 25' "Air" is based on the original episode 25 script which was completed during production of the TV series. Due to production time limits and other problems, this script was not used and the TV episode 25 "Owaru sekai (The Ending World)" instead became a drama which unfolded within an inner universe like episode 26. In this sense, episode 25' could be considered a return to the originally intended contents. In contrast, episode 26' dds much more story and dramatic content to TV episode 26, thus deepening the theme.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 22:19 GMT

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Postby Grant Oldman [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

From http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question24

"The very first title card of episode 26, TV version, states:

It was 2016 A.D.
The thing that people lost, in other words, the complementation of the mind has begun. However, there is not enough time to describe the entire process.
Therefore, we will examine the complementation of the mind of a single boy named Ikari Shinji.

It is no leap in logic, or unsubstantiated interpretation, to say that this title card is basically explaining that Shinji is merely an example. There is not a shread of proof - at any point - during the TV ending that Shinji has the ability to halt Complementation. Throughout 25 and 26, we see the cases of Shinji, Asuka and Misato - their Complementation - concurrently. In the film ending, Shinji himself is the only person to truly begin Complementation. This opening title card immediately alludes to the idea that Shinji is simply the example of the process of complementation, and that he will be complemented - no choices, nothing. "we will examine the complementation of the mind". It's a very mechanical, sterile, opening. More importantly, it's very matter of fact. (Also, never mind that the TV ending is suddenly in 2016 while the EoE ending is in 2015.)

Finally - the quotation that I feel should be the final word on the topic, but people continue to challenge (if you're going to challenge the Newtype Filmbooks, then you might as well discount the RCB and various other materials. They all have errors in them in various ways).

The Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.

Q) Which is the true end to Evangelion? The TV episodes or the films?

A) The End of Evangelion is the official ending to the saga. In the RCB it is stated that EoE was created from the original scripts for eps 25 and then a new script written to continue from that episode, but because of production errors they could not be used. However, this does not mean the TV ending is false, it is simply an alternate conclusion."

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 23:32 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Grant Oldman wrote:The Red Cross Book states EoE is an alternative ending.


In addition to what Shin-Seiki correctly pointed out about that quote from the RCB, even if it had stated what you say that it did, it has been discredited as a source of valid information on several topics already, and I fail to see why it should be seen as automatically valid on this particular issue.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2004, 23:34 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Grant Oldman wrote:quoting Eva Otaku:

Finally - the quotation that I feel should be the final word on the topic, but people continue to challenge (if you're going to challenge the Newtype Filmbooks, then you might as well discount the RCB and various other materials. They all have errors in them in various ways).

The Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry


Soluzar wrote:In addition to what Shin-Seiki correctly pointed out about that quote from the RCB, even if it had stated what you say that it did, it has been discredited as a source of valid information on several topics already, and I fail to see why it should be seen as automatically valid on this particular issue.


This seems like a good time to trot out Shin-seiki's order of canoninity once again:
Shin-seiki wrote:Originally Posted by Shin-seiki
The hierarchy of canonicity goes something like this:
1: What is said and shown in the series/movies. The New Production Cut and EoE are the "final" version, and thus supercede the broadcast version in canonicity, in any theoretical divergence between the two.
2: The words of Anno himself, and of other senior members of the NGE team at GAINAX.
3: Supplemental published sources officially sanctioned by GAINAX, such as the RCB, the various Newtype filmbooks, and the Cardass Masters card game, etc.
4: The manga by Sadamoto. The manga is basically canon only with reference to itself, but may be referenced in those areas where it offers more detailed info on subjects that the series is vague about, such as the background of SEELE, as long as it doesn't actually contradict the facts as presented in the series.
5: Least reliable is the stuff that ADV (or VIZ, for that matter) came up with that they put on the packaging and other promotional materials.


He listed "official" but supplimental sources below the show itself for a reason: they are canon only when they do not contradict the evidence presented in the show itself. LL of the evidence presented in Ep. 26 says that Shinji rejected instrumentality, therefore the Newtype Book is wrong.

While you were at EvaOtaku's sight did you happen to follow HIS link to M.D. Wigs' sight? The argument presented there is much more persuasive, though I've always felt that he should have added that the theater shattering and releasing the characters back under a blue sky is obviously the same scene as the Black Moon shattering and releasing all the souls back to Earth.

I should also note that Brendan's idea that these are alternate endings in no way supports your claim that both endings happened and TV. 26 happened after EOE was over.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 00:41 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

thewayneiac wrote:He listed "official" but supplimental sources below the show itself for a reason: they are canon only when they do not contradict the evidence presented in the show itself. LL of the evidence presented in Ep. 26 says that Shinji rejected instrumentality, therefore the Newtype Book is wrong.


I guess that's about how I see it as well. The worst examples of this type of material are some of the DVD extras on the Manga releases (D&R and EoR) which completely contradicts the material in the show itself, and feeds some of the worst misconceptions. From examples like that, I've decided that I don't trust any new information that I find anywhere. If it reinforces or clarifies something that appears in the show, then fine. If it purports to offer new background material, (as in the case of the extras on the Manga DVDs or the RCB) I take it with an enormous pinch of salt.

I should also note that Brendan's idea that these are alternate endings in no way supports your claim that both endings happened and TV. 26 happened after EOE was over.


I sometimes wonder if Brendan himself still even supports the 'two alternate endings' theory, after all the debate that's taken place. It's possible that the documents on his site represent an outdated picture of his views. He posts here sometimes, doesn't he? Maybe he'll answer that one for me...

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 02:18 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

Soluzar wrote:I guess that's about how I see it as well. The worst examples of this type of material are some of the DVD extras on the Manga releases (D&R and EoR) which completely contradicts the material in the show itself, and feeds some of the worst misconceptions. From examples like that, I've decided that I don't trust any new information that I find anywhere. If it reinforces or clarifies something that appears in the show, then fine. If it purports to offer new background material, (as in the case of the extras on the Manga DVDs or the RCB) I take it with an enormous pinch of salt.
I certainly take the new BG info in the EVA2 game seriously, since it come straight from Anno himself.
I sometimes wonder if Brendan himself still even supports the 'two alternate endings' theory, after all the debate that's taken place. It's possible that the documents on his site represent an outdated picture of his views. He posts here sometimes, doesn't he? Maybe he'll answer that one for me...
Brendan hasn't budged on this issue; he updated that entry in his FAQ only recently (including adding a link to MDWigs site, by way of acknowledging that there is another POV on this issue), but he himself shows no sign of backing down...

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 02:46 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I certainly take the new BG info in the EVA2 game seriously, since it come straight from Anno himself.


Yeah, I'm not saying that it's never true. Just that my reaction is always to take it with a pinch of salt. I don't really know anything about the EVA2 game, I assumed that those games would require a far greater level of knowledge of written Japanese than I can lay claim to. Any good?

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 02:56 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

Soluzar wrote:Yeah, I'm not saying that it's never true. Just that my reaction is always to take it with a pinch of salt. I don't really know anything about the EVA2 game, I assumed that those games would require a far greater level of knowledge of written Japanese than I can lay claim to. Any good?
Er, I've never played the game; I was just refering to the tidbits of info presented here

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 03:01 GMT

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Postby Lord Jak [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

Episode 25 made me depressed. Then episode 26 totally got me so confused that I wound up with a headache.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 03:34 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

NGE2 provides us with such blatantly useful tidbits, it would really be a waste to dismiss them. While I really would prefer getting ahold of the original in-game text, as opposed to relying upon that one document that is just a "greatest hits" selection (as opposed to all of the 'secrets', translated directly and left in their original format)... But for what we have at the moment, everything seems to be consistent with the show, and the only reason to shrug any of it off would be if you didn't want to let go of any pet theories that are disproved by it.

From what I hear, the game is a pain in the @$$ and one would have more fun getting a pap smear with a rake. Too bad, huh?

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 04:59 GMT


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