Gendo At His Desk

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Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:48 am

Shin-seiki wrote:I myself feel justified in equating the S^2 with the double helix, for those, and other, reasons.


FYI, the CI basically states that the Super Solenoid has the same shape as DNA. (Hmm. Maybe I should actually, like, release a full translation of that entry for you guys someday. Image )

The only other straightforward correlation my mind is making between S2 and DNA: The former (normally) resides within the core=nucleus of an Adam-based lifeform, and the latter resides within the nucleus of a cell. Plus the obvious allusions to Life: Fruit of Life, Thread of Life.

As of yet, I can't think of anything that supports this "FoK=DNA" idea in some kind of logical and internally consistent manner. I'm really curious about what the reasoning behind this is...

Originally posted on: 13-Apr-2006, 03:35 GMT

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Postby zuggy [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:48 am

Thanks for quoting that Reihu, but now that makes things more complicated. Image

Maybe the whole SoL thing could be interpreted like how a virus can penetrate a cell and inject its own DNA?

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 08:29 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:48 am

zuggy wrote:Thanks for quoting that Reihu, but now that makes things more complicated. Image

Maybe the whole SoL thing could be interpreted like how a virus can penetrate a cell and inject its own DNA?


I'm afraid I'm not following you on any of that. Image

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 00:50 GMT

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:48 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Um, the word soleniod means coil or helix.

Doh. Image_ Well, that makes sense, I suppose, at least "on the surface." Guess I'd need to hear your full explanation to get the sense of it though...till then I'd best shut up, heh heh.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 03:09 GMT

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Postby The Opinionator [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:48 am

A solenoid is a long cylinder of wire which is used to make things like electromagnets or inductors. You can make one by taking a cylinder and wrapping a single wire around it in one direction until you have as many turns in the coil as you need. I've never heard of a double-helical solenoid before -- that is, one with two distinct wires wrapped in the same direction to make a double-helix.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 03:17 GMT

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Postby Gannon [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:50 am

I really think we should elaborate further on my Kosher pickle theory.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 03:44 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:50 am

The Opinionator wrote:I've never heard of a double-helical solenoid before -- that is, one with two distinct wires wrapped in the same direction to make a double-helix.


Geezer Scientists "A DOUBLE-helical solenoid? An engine that makes unlimited energy? What on Earth are you babbling about?"
Dr. Katsuragi "Yeah. A double helix. That's what makes it THUUUUUUUUPAR!"

A "solenoid graph" also turns up in EoE right after Kaworu/Adam's hands sweep towards Yui/Eva and she draws the Spear towards her core (with a low moan).

Image

Aoba: Solenoid graph inverting! Ego barrier weakening!
Hyuga: A.T. Field shifting to Pattern Red!

Then Kozo starts going on about how Yui has obtained both Fruits... Tree of Life = Embryo of Lives... Ark vs. Demon... blah blah blah. What Shinji's ego barrier, self-consciousness pattern, and solenoid graphs have to do with any of that is still ... mystifying. Image_

This graph has the same shape as the synchro graphs seen throughout the show:

http://www.evageeks.org/episod..._C312_c_mid.jpg
(Damned thing won't imbed, for some reason.)

...but I'm not sure if they're technically supposed to be the same thing or not.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 03:52 GMT

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Postby asdfff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:50 am

Sidenote: there should be a evacommentary section devoted to Eva technobabble. Ten times the psychiatric applicability of treknobabble, none of the self-important "Oh yeah! why didn't I think of that!"

"Eva No Babble"

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 03:57 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

asdfff wrote:Sidenote: there should be a evacommentary section devoted to Eva technobabble. Ten times the psychiatric applicability of treknobabble, none of the self-important "Oh yeah! why didn't I think of that!"

"Eva No Babble"


You'd have to elaborate on persactly what you mean...

But odds are, it's on that VEEEEERRRRRRRRY long list of "FGC Objectives".

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 04:15 GMT

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Postby asdfff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

I was just joking about adding a whole new section. Besides, since eva technobabble sometimes takes up entire halves of episodes, it's not as if one has to reach far for examples.

"Holy cow! Yui has obtained one...no, TWO! Two fruits! Yui has obtained two fruits!"
Misato's standard bridge closeup: "What?!?!?!"

very similar to

"Plasma injectors on port nacelle undergoing harmonic feedback!"
"Quick! Stop the reaction before it reaches the [shrug, I dunno] Killern Phase Threshold!"

Speaking of which, do you feel like throwing us tiny, wee scraps of progress-report on FGC?

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 04:21 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

asdfff wrote:I was just joking about adding a whole new section.


A technobabble section will probably be there one of these days... Lexicons are a dime a dozen online, of course, but ours will be so great it doesn't matter. Image

Besides, since eva technobabble sometimes takes up entire halves of episodes, it's not as if one has to reach far for examples.

"Holy cow! Yui has obtained one...no, TWO! Two fruits! Yui has obtained two fruits!"
Misato's standard bridge closeup: "What?!?!?!"


The gobbledygook makes more sense than you might think. Image (Or, at least, it has a habit of making sense eventually.)

"Plasma injectors on port nacelle undergoing harmonic feedback!"
"Quick! Stop the reaction before it reaches the [shrug, I dunno] Killern Phase Threshold!"


They manage to write huge manuals on that crap, so I guess it must have some kind of logic behind it, too.

Speaking of which, do you feel like throwing us tiny, wee scraps of progress-report on FGC?


Uh... Image If there is anything worth speaking of, I'll be sure to let you know.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 04:27 GMT

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Postby zuggy [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

Reichu wrote:I'm afraid I'm not following you on any of that. Image


About making things more complicated I was talking about the difference between guf and guph, because 'the room of physical bodies' makes more sense that the room where souls originate. Image

The other thing I said about virus popped into my head when you talked about how a cell's nucleus and an Eva's core are alike.

Image

The virus sticks itself into the cell with it's prongs then injects its own dna to neturalise the cell's defense mechanisms, then its own dna takes over and uses the cell to make more viruses... Similar to the SoL in some ways.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 12:39 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

Reichu wrote:FYI, the CI basically states that the Super Solenoid has the same shape as DNA.
That's a conclusion that I'd arrived at sort of intuitively ages ago, and one that has informed my thinking on the topic of Fruit of Life vs Fruit of Wisdom all along. Still, it is gratifying to see once again my intuition proven correct Image

I'm surprised, Reichu, that you don't seem to have caught on to the visual/thematic parallelism that is set up here. Look at is this way: DNA is real, and we all know that its form is a double helix, but the S^2 engine/organ is fictional, something that Anno invented for the world of NGE. He could have assigned any shape or structure he wanted to the 'engine of immortality' that the Angels possess, but he chose to give it the same shape as DNA. That's what I was getting at when I said "Coincidence? I think not..." above. He obviously intended to link DNA and the S^2, so that we (the geek faction of the show's audience) would think about them (i.e. 'contrast and compare') together.

The formulation "DNA = Fruit of Wisdom" that I offered before is too 'bare bones' and imprecise, so I suppose it's not surprising that you all were perplexed by it. So allow me to put it another way: DNA is to 'Fruit of Wisdom' as S^2 Engine is to 'Fruit of Life'. That is to say, DNA is the concrete, real-world biological manifestation of the metaphorical concept labeled 'Fruit of Wisdom', just as S^2 Engine is the concrete, real-word (well, real NGE world, anyway) biological manifestation of the metaphorical concept labeled 'Fruit of Life'.

What, in terms of the "big picture" of life on earth, is the role of DNA? It is a vehicle for the transmission and accumulation, over time and generations of individal organisms, of information[/u]. It allows, thru the process of natual selection, for species to evolve and become more complex (and, it would seem that in NGE, there is an element of "evolutionary pre-destination" at work, since the end point of the process is reached when the Lilim evolve into mammalian/primate/hominid versions of the FAR human template). Eventually species arise that are complex enough to achieve sentience and language, and then another kind of information comes into play: extra-genetic information, i.e. culture. In more primitive times, culture was primarily practical in nature, concerned with survival skills such which berries were good to eat, and how create stone tools and fire, etc. As human society gained more ability to control our environment (agriculture, villages and cities, etc), other aspects of culture arose, such as art, music, and religion. But in NGE, we're primarily concerned with "practical culture", which in modern times goes by the name "Science"

So, what is the power or gift of the Lilim? The Apostles are vastly more powerful than any individual puny human. They basically bypass all that evolution stuff, and are born at the apex of existence, immortal and god-like. And yet, as we're told in the RCB:[Fruit of Wisdom (CHIE NO MI)]
That possessed by humans. The product of this wisdom appears to be "Science", which is praised by Gendou as "the power of man,"[/u] but ridiculed by Fuyutsuki as "the cause of Second Impact". If so then Eva and the Instrumentality Project are also the products of this wisdom...
Science is our Equalizer; it is what allows us puny humans to fight, and defeat, the Angels. But Science is a form of knowledge, and knowledge is a form of information. DNA is the vehicle of information at the biological level, and science is the most significant manifestation of it at the societal, or cultural level. As a species, our abilty to accumulate knowledge, wisdom, and information is our ultimate force multiplier. An individual human isn't much compared to an Angel, but the billions of individuals that make up humanity as a whole = the 18th Angel, the most fearsome one of all.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 14:15 GMT

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

asdfff wrote:"Holy cow! Yui has obtained one...no, TWO! Two fruits! Yui has obtained two fruits!

"She's about to break the high score on the Pac-Man machine!"

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 19:26 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

Shin-seiki wrote:That's a conclusion that I'd arrived at sort of intuitively ages ago, and one that has informed my thinking on the topic of Fruit of Life vs Fruit of Wisdom all along. Still, it is gratifying to see once again my intuition proven correct Image


I'd been under the impression that the double-coil nature of the Super Solenoid had been established for a while, myself.

I'm surprised, Reichu, that you don't seem to have caught on to the visual/thematic parallelism that is set up here.


For everything I'd rolled around in my head regarding the matter after your vague suggestion, I encountered various problems, so I figured you either (A) knew something critical that I didn't, or (B) I wasn't really glossing over anything, but what felt like problems to me weren't problems to you. I figured I'd just wait to see which one it was before I did any heavy yakking.

And, phew... It's (B). I feel much better now.

Nice synthesis. A lot of the ideas are ones that we've been batting around for a while. I think I see a bit of inspiration from my own Insane Rants, as well. Image The new connections you're forwarding are ones that I considered in my "WTF is Dr. Scott thinking?" brainstorm -- not like it really matters if I did or not, I suppose -- but I still have two primary sticking points.

(1) Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a direct implication of all this is that Adam-based lifeforms would not have DNA. This doesn't seem to make an iota of sense to me.

(2) Culture and knowledge don't have a direct correlation with DNA; they cannot be transferred genetically.

Originally posted on: 15-Apr-2006, 08:18 GMT

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

Reichu wrote:(1) Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a direct implication of all this is that Adam-based lifeforms would not have DNA. This doesn't seem to make an iota of sense to me.

I was about to bring this bit up, but you win

(2) Culture and knowledge don't have a direct correlation with DNA; they cannot be transferred genetically.

Well, not exactly. Some think that some knowledge or memories are transferred through DNA. Although that article may be a little far fetched, there were experiments with some kinds of worms or something that showed memory may not only be correllated with the brain (I can't find the article, maybe I dreamt the whole thing up)

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 21:01 GMT

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Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

1) Technically, we know that the Adam-angels have... what did Ritsuko call the thing that was very similar to our DNA? I know it wasn't "DNA."
2) Perhaps in the NGE universe there is a closer connection between DNA and knowlege?* Since our race seems to have been created through a sort of "guided evolution," perhaps there is a genetic tendency toward civilization and science? However, seriously, lots of animals have DNA, and none of them are described as having a Fruit of Wisdom.
Other notes:
Assuming EVA-01 is a clone of Adam born from Lilith, she'd presumably have Adam's "DNA" rather than Lilim-type DNA, right?
I do think it's conceivable that it's not DNA in and of itself that's the Fruit, but rather something special about the DNA of mankind, which separates us from the Angels and from other Lilim-based animals, just the very specific configuration of DNA that enables us to form societies and cultural knowlege.

*The only remotely relevent example I can come up with is that Rei seems to develop slight maternal feelings toward Shinji, despite the fact that there's no way she'd have any of Yui's memories. However, most of that 'vibe' comes from Shinji's side, who does have a logical reason to view Rei as a maternal figure.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 21:08 GMT

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

LuigiHann wrote:1) Technically, we know that the Adam-angels have... what did Ritsuko call the thing that was very similar to our DNA? I know it wasn't "DNA."

http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/waveform_pattern.jpg
http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/wave...attern_blue.jpg

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 21:23 GMT

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Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

Ah, wave pattern. I knew it was something... particle-y.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 21:30 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 am

Ornette wrote:Well, not exactly. Some think that some knowledge or memories are transferred through DNA. Although that article may be a little far fetched, there were experiments with some kinds of worms or something that showed memory may not only be correllated with the brain (I can't find the article, maybe I dreamt the whole thing up)


Okay, so I was making a bit of a generalization. Image I jabber about the collective unconscious enough that I apparently buy into some facet of this stuff (although I really haven't actually researched it enough to commit myself to a particular explanation). In terms of NGE, anyway, I was using the concept in reference to the "human condition" that the FAR are attempting to preserve and playing around with the idea that this would be metabiological, not biological. One could potentially expand this concept thus: It's already established in NGE that souls accumulate a LOT of information through the process of living through a vessel, and perhaps some of this information is passed along generationally. It's metaphysical biology, after all.

I suppose my quibble earlier was, "the power of man" (..."man" :snort: ) is apparently represented by the technology we've developed to compensate for our inherent vulnerabilities. While we have evolved in such a way that we possess a natural inclination for the sorts of tendencies that led to the development of science in the first place, knowledge of our technology is in no way "encoded" in our genes. We have to learn about it on an individual basis from what's already been established, or we get to start from scratch.

The genetic discrepancy between us and the Apostles is already accounted for. They theoretically have the exact same aptitude for developing technology as their mortal antecedents. The difference is not a matter of DNA; it's about "life circumstances". Living forever, without fear of death; possessing superhuman powers; and the ability to transcend human form are things that people have desired as long as we've existed, due to our own inherent limitations and insecurities and the desire to be more than what we are –- we're inherently just frightened little mammals, after all.

As Shin-seiki said, Adam essentially handed her kids godhood from the very start. They're able to be killed, but they possess eternal youth (their bodies don't degenerate over time) and longevity. Their forms are limited only by their imaginations. They have Phenomenal Cosmic Powers and an unlimited energy source. Ergo, the way they experience life would be dramatically different from us in a lot of ways, as they're deprived of the factors that have "inspired" many of our insecurities and what we've created in an attempt to compensate.

They would have access to existences and experiences beyond our ability to imagine (a day in the life of Leliel?) – but it goes the other way around, too. As mortals, the grass looks greener on the other side, and we feel incomplete. But what if you were immortal and all-powerful? Perhaps you would feel just as incomplete, especially if you had always been that way. Eternal life and infinite power isn't necessarily all that great.

Anyway... The FoL-S2 connection is rock-solid, and has been established for years, but this DNA thing has some rather tenuous aspects, IMO.

LuigiHann wrote:1) Technically, we know that the Adam-angels have... what did Ritsuko call the thing that was very similar to our DNA? I know it wasn't "DNA."


I don't quite understand this "Wave Pattern" stuff myself, but if that is all there were to it, I imagine it would be difficult to "revive" Adam through cloning and genetic engineering technology.

Originally posted on: 14-Apr-2006, 21:59 GMT


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