Toji's dream/hallucination in Episode 19

Over time, notable threads from ANF will be preserved here for the Benefit of All.

Moderators: Ornette, Monk Ed

Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:42 pm

Image

I've never heard an explanation for this, or a discussion of what it means. So I'm going to present my thoughts on it.

The first thing that should be mentioned is that this is the exact same train car setting that Shinji had hallucinations of in Episode 16... and Shinji's here again, too. Toji is not having the same experience here than Shinji was in episode 16, but Shinji is having the same kind of experience now that he was having before. What this means is that Toji is not having a trip of his own, he's just somehow been pulled into a trip that Shinji is having.

Of course, you all probably figured that out the first time you saw it.

What you may not have realized is that this is the ONLY TIME when a character had such a trip outside an Eva. This trip, and Shinji's trips while absorbed into Unit 01, are the only ones not caused by an attacking Angel trying to communicate. So what else could cause it? Here's where things get interesting. The trips caused by an Angel's attempts to communicate are very conversation-based; there are occasionally rapid montages of disjoined flashbacks, but these are built into the conversation structure to demonstrate the things that are being discussed. Shinji's trips while absorbed into Unit 01 are the opposite; he is basically just talking to himself most of the time, commenting on random images that he is seeing, with occasional snippets of conversation that seem equally random. Toji's trip, or rather Shinji's trip that Toji is somehow seeing, follows the pattern of the Angels' communication attempts.

Someone, or something, is communicating with Shinji while he is asleep in his hospital bed!

Now our task becomes to figure out just who the hell Shinji is talking to, and more importantly, why Toji is involved. The conversation itself reveals nothing about the identity of the third party, except that it's probably not Shinji talking to himself. I believe that Shinji is talking to exactly who he appears to be talking to: Rei! No, I'm not crazy. I have evidence to back this up. During Shinji's trips in Episode 20, a few snippets of conversation can be strung together into two larger conversations. One of these conversation arcs is with a pseudo-person that appears to be Misato, but does not identify itself as her or generally act much like her. The other conversation is with someone who not only looks like Rei, but identifies herself as such. Furthermore, in the manga, Rei holds an actual telepathic conversation with Unit 01, and attempts to persuade her to release Shinji. This strongly points to the possibility that the entity that identified itself as Rei during this trip really was Rei. And besides... if angels can telepathically communicate with the pilots, shouldn't Rei be able to as well to some degree? True, she doesn't know that she's part Angel until Episode 24, and she never uses this ability while awake, but this just means that she'd be doing it subconsciously. This may be related in some way to her magical appearance and disappearance at the beginning of the show - she was probably asleep then, too, as Fuyutsuki was ordered to wake her up.

Okay, let's pretend that Rei is telepathically reaching out to Shinji in Episode 19 using her Angel superpowers. I STILL haven't said a damn thing about how any of this involves Toji! So here I go. The question that we really need to ask is not what allows Toji to be part of this trip, but why it's only affecting Toji and no one else. Is Toji unique in some way? Has he done anything unique lately, or has anything unique happened to him lately, that would have anything to do with telepathic Angel communication? Why, yes! He was recently inside an Eva that fused with the angel Bardiel, and if Armisael is any indication of what happens during angel/Eva fusions, there's a very good chance that Bardiel fused with Toji a little bit too. I don't imagine that Bardiel would have had the courtesy to un-fuse with Toji before dying, so Toji probably has a little bit of Bardiel in him afterward. And we can all agree that having a little bit of Angel in you probably makes you more sensitive to Angel telepathy powers.

If anyone would like to offer a better idea, I'm listening.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2005, 05:41 GMT

The Eva Monkey [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 128
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Eva Monkey [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:42 pm

If you listen to Touji's slurred speech, it is fairly obvious that Touji is merely hallucinating. I think it is more likely that Anno is simply reusing the cliched train setting rather than Touji is being pulled into some telepathic dream state with Shinji.

It's just a hallucination induced by pain killers, nothing more. At least in my opinion. Now, the setting of the hallucination may be Anno's attempt to convey something, like the idea of being in transit. But I still contend that the exchange between Rei and Shinji that is observed by Touji is firmly rooted in reality.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2005, 17:48 GMT

Talamatross [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 1
Joined: Sep 24, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Talamatross [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:47 pm

By the way, the type of conversation that Shinji has with himself or perhaps Rei, Lilith's spirit, or his mother's soul in Unit-01 greatly resembles Socratic learning techniques. If you read Plato's Republic you'll see what I mean.

Anyways I agree with Eva Monkey. I dont think giving Toji any spiritual or angelic significance adds anything to the story. That scene probably only serves to build an ambience or establish mystery, or tension. But honestly the story gains nothing by making Toji any more significant then what he appears to be.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2005, 18:49 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
Sachiel
User avatar
Posts: 242
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:47 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:If you listen to Touji's slurred speech, it is fairly obvious that Touji is merely hallucinating.


As always, I believe that it's unwise to dismiss anything that happens in EVA as an hallucination. (Except for really obvious moments like the buildings closing in on Shinji in ep. 4.) I would especially apply this principle to a scene that is as thematically connected to other episodes as is this. So I believe there is something going on here, but....

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:What this means is that Toji is not having a trip of his own, he's just somehow been pulled into a trip that Shinji is having.



I don't agree that Toji is experiencing a telepathic communication between Shinji and Rei. Why set such a conversation on a train rather than just in the hospital? So what is going on here? Where else besides Shinj's experiences in eps. 16 & 20 do we see conversations on trains? In Instrumentality! Therefore I believe that Toji is having a genuine vision of Instrumentality in ep. 19, as is Shinji in ep. 20 and when he is in contact with the angel in ep. 16. Apparently instrumentality is a timeless state, and Eva piolts are in danger of slipping into it without warning. Remember that souls in Instrumentality work on a quantum level, so it would be meaningless to say "But it can't be Instrumentality; it hasn't happened yet!" As for why this is happening while Toji is not in an Eva, I agree that it have made more sense if he had been, but intruding this scene into ep. 18 would have interrupted the dramitic flow of the episode, so they gave him a make-up instrumentality experience in ep. 19.

Furthermore, in the manga, Rei holds an actual telepathic conversation with Unit 01, and attempts to persuade her to release Shinji.


The manga version of ep. 20 is so radically different from the anime that it probably can't be used to prove anything.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2005, 18:55 GMT

Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:47 pm

Those of you who would pass off Toji's trip as a morphine-induced hallucination fail to take into account the fact that Rei and Shinji are discussing things of which Toji would have no knowledge.

Talamatross wrote:By the way, the type of conversation that Shinji has with himself or perhaps Rei, Lilith's spirit, or his mother's soul in Unit-01 greatly resembles Socratic learning techniques.


Ah, you refer to the process of convincing someone that one of their beliefs is incorrect by asking them questions instead of giving statements. Great way to trick an opponent into either contradicting themselves or revealing their ignorance.

thewayneiac wrote:Why set such a conversation on a train rather than just in the hospital?


When have psychic conversations EVER been set in the same locations where the pilots physically were?

But honestly... Shinji does seem to like trains... at least in episode 4...

thewayneiac wrote:I believe that Toji is having a genuine vision of Instrumentality


Actually, that was my best guess too for a while. The idea that maybe Instrumentality didn't happen all at once, but "flickered" a bit in the last few episodes as the necessary pieces started coming together. However, this fails to explain why Toji wasn't the focus of attention in his own trip. How many people experience Instrumentality by watching people they know talking to each other?

thewayneiac wrote:Apparently instrumentality is a timeless state, and Eva piolts are in danger of slipping into it without warning. Remember that souls in Instrumentality work on a quantum level


I've never seen anything to support those statements. The only known exits from Instrumentality happened as if the passage of time was the same in Instrumentality as in the real world, and all known entrances into Instrumentality resulted in getting TANG everywhere. And while Eva has no shortage of cryptic references to quantum physics, there's nothing to connect quantum physics to souls (except some strange theories about whose soul is inside Unit 00)

thewayneiac wrote:The manga version of ep. 20 is so radically different from the anime that it probably can't be used to prove anything.


Prove? No, definitely not. Strengthen evidence from the anime? Absolutely.

Originally posted on: 08-Nov-2005, 01:38 GMT

OMF [ANF]
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Posts: 428
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby OMF [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

I think you're right. Some might pass it off as simple drug induced hallucination, but I would hold that the evidence does point to some kind of telepathic communication between Shinji and Rei, of which Touji, perhaps due to his close proximity, is somehow a part of.

It seems that some kind of "Angelic power" or telepathy/telecognition is at work here. reviewing the sequence of events.

We begin with a scene involving Asuka and Rei in the hospital waiting room. Asuka comments that
Asuka: He
[Shinji]'d be dreaming now.
Rei: Dreaming?
Asuka: Yeah, don't you dream?

To which Rei responds with nothing but a mysterious glance, seemingly at nothing. We cut immediately to Touji waking from sleep, and seeing Shinji sleeping next to him before falling unconcious again.

Image

In the next cut we see Touji in the mysterious railcar, just one railcar up from where Shinji is conversing with Rei. This whole scene is very dreamlike and the key point here is that Touji is hearing things he really wouldn't just dream up.


Some key points here. Firstly, we are shown Rei aware for Shinji being unconscious only moments before the "dream" scene.

Secondly the place in which the dream takes place, the railcar, appear both in episodes #16 and #21' in paticular, as well as other. In both these key cases, the car seems to serve as the mental meeting place where Shinji psychically converses with others. A construct of his mind?

Thirdly, although this could simply be Touji's hallucinated vision, we are later shown that Shinji has most likely been whisked off to his waiting cell quite quickly, and so it is unlikely that Rei would have had the luxury of such a conversation in person.

Lastly, in the vision, Touji is present, but in an adjoining car. This is a very subtle, yet powerful visual clue. Touji is within the dream, yet is an isolated onlooker, behind a clearly defined boundary. He is either not allowed to enter, or has not been allowed or even made to enter the second carraige. He is only hearing, not speaking. Also, both Shinji and more importantly Rei are seemingly unaware of his presence.


Fuzzy Chicken's other points are also interesting. Touji has in a sense been "touched" by both an Evangelion and an Angel. As such, perhaps something has rubbed off on him, or his dorant or underused "sixth senses" have become more sensitive. I had originally though that Touji was simply picking up psychic overbroadcasts from Rei, simply an innocent psychic eavedropper, but his recent expieriences should be taken into account here as well.

Originally posted on: 08-Nov-2005, 22:00 GMT

Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

Holy sh**. All this time, everyone thought that Rei's lack of a response to Asuka's question meant that she didn't dream. But OMF has just pointed out strong evidence for a completely different explanation!

What I find interesting is that for OMF's suggestion to work, Rei would have to be aware of her psychic abilities, as she is in the manga. This raises a much more interesting question: why does she only ever contact Shinji with this ability? Is it because he's the only person worth talking to? I'm sure she'd have loved to use the mind-rape scene in Episode 22 to find out just why Asuka was so pissed off at her. And since she was clearly uncertain of whether or not she was the "third one" after Unit 00 self-destructed, shouldn't she have tried to find out by invading the dreams of Gendo or Ritsuko? And most importantly, why would she lay in bed wondering what Kaworu meant when he said that they were the same, when she could just ask him in his sleep? Hmmmm, this doesn't add up. Maybe it's because for some reason, Shinji is the only one she CAN talk to in this way, what with the suspected genetic link to his mum and all. But then how does Toji fit into this? There's no common thread connecting Toji/Bardiel/03 to Rei/Lillith/Yui. The best suggestion that I can come up with is that for some reason, Rei can only psi-talk to people who've already been in mental or physical contact with an Angel.

Just to nitpick... there's no way to say for certain that Toji "can't" enter the other train car. I can easily imagine Toji getting up, walking into the car containing Rei and Shinji, and saying "Hey guys... where the f**king hell are we?"

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2005, 04:00 GMT

Siendra [ANF]
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 48
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Siendra [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

I seem to remember a discussion about this. I know I posted some long explanation about the train car scenario being the result of contact with Eva. I honestly don't remember what I said, though. I'll look for the thread.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2005, 07:26 GMT

Ornette [ANF]
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 370
Joined: Oct 23, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:This raises a much more interesting question: why does she only ever contact Shinji with this ability?


perhaps it is because Shinji is the only person (of the people that you listed) that share DNA with Rei, albiet passed down via procreation.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2005, 10:39 GMT

Ark [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 102
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ark [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

I've always assumed that Rei was telepathically linked with Shinji and Toji. There's no reason why Toji would be dreaming about Shinji talking about how his father doesn't understand him. Plus consider Toji's comment "This is weird". The train seems to be a reference originally back to ep 4 hence representing Shinji's isolated journey through existance. I've mentioned this another thread but trains seem to have some kind of psychological meaning in Eva as Asuka is at a train station during her mind rape.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2005, 11:09 GMT

OMF [ANF]
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Posts: 428
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby OMF [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:What I find interesting is that for OMF's suggestion to work, Rei would have to be aware of her psychic abilities, as she is in the manga.

There is nothing that explicitly precludes this. Rei is just mysterious enough for this to posibly be the case. We certainly know that Rei is aware of her AT Field abilities in episode #24. So what about telepathy? Rei wierdness on this scale would appear to be confined to episodes #01 and #26'. Possibly in #25 and #26 as well, but the overall wierdometer is pretty high overall in these two.

A good point to bring up here is that the pilots all seem to be using some form of, possibly machine assisted, telepathy or telcognition when synchronising with the Evangelions. So perhaps they are all somehow sensitive to it.

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:there's no way to say for certain that Toji "can't" enter the other train car. I can easily imagine Toji getting up, walking into the car containing Rei and Shinji, and saying "Hey guys... where the f**king hell are we?"


I dont think that would be the case. To elaborate on the significance of this. Touji in the adjoining carraige may be symbolic of the fact that is is not a direct part of the conversation, and is only a bystander. Notice he does not speak during the exchange, only listens. If some kind of telepathy is going on here, then Touji would only be recieving and not broadcasting any signals. Hence he would only be able to listen in, not participate.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2005, 21:02 GMT

BLACKANGEL32076 [ANF]
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BLACKANGEL32076 [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

If that is the case, why wasn't Toji able to regenterate his leg? Supposedly these angles have amazing regenteration capablilities, but Toji is still without his leg when Hikari comes to visit him. Explain that one.

Originally posted on: 10-Nov-2005, 01:56 GMT

Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

BLACKANGEL32076 wrote:If that is the case, why wasn't Toji able to regenterate his leg? Supposedly these angles have amazing regenteration capablilities, but Toji is still without his leg when Hikari comes to visit him. Explain that one.


(1) Different degrees of fusion
(2) DNA of Lillith.

Originally posted on: 10-Nov-2005, 05:15 GMT


Return to “AnimeNation Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests