Coming to a consensus on the dummy plug/backup system

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Coming to a consensus on the dummy plug/backup system

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Postby Cogboy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:24 am

I would like to use this thread to put together a model of how the dummy system works to eventually be added to the wiki.
There have been plenty of wild theories in the past, but i believe with the proper discussion and inspection of the evidence we can come to a consensus on how this system works.


It has always been my view that the dummy system consists of a biological link (human body) and a separate control system.
In the dedicated dummy plug such as used in the MP evas this body is a kaworu/Rei clone, but in the backup system this role is taken by the pilot, negating the need for a second life support system/cockpit area within the entry plug. The control system of the pilot is just disconnected and control is passed on to the dummy system.

Evidence for the biological aspect I believe is shown in the manga, I don't have a link but there is a picture of a kaworu clone hooked up to a bunch of tubes in a cockpit. maybe someone has this?

The electrical aspect is discussed in the series in a conversation between Ritsuko and Gendo. again i don't have the exact quote at hand but it revolves around Rei's thoughts/personality being digitised for the dummy system. I believe this could be part of what her nekkid sessions in terminal dogma are for.

As for the control system itself it could be a conventional computer or a simplified version of the biological computing technology used in the magi.


Ok so that's what i have so far, if anyone has anything to add or holes to poke, well, that's what the thread is for.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:03 am

http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2312

The picture of Kaworu you're thinking of is from a doujinshi.

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Postby Zuggy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:54 am

It's an optical disc that has Rei's thought patterns coded onto it.

Episode #18.

Shinji looks up, hears whirring sound of Drive A and Drive B on either side of the optical disc as it's spun - the disc can seen to be moving.

Image
Image

Episopde #23.

Rei pulls lever embedded in her seat to activate the self-destruct thingy coded onto the disc, whirring sound of Drive A and Drive B on either side of the optical disc as the disc is spun - the disc can seen to be moving.

Image
Image
Image

[code:1]RITSUKO:
This is the dummy plug prototype.
Rei's personal data has been loaded into it,
but it's not really possible to digitize a human mind and soul.
Ultimately, it's a fake, an imitation.
Just a machine that emulates a pilot's thinking process.

IKARI:
It'll transmit a signal pattern to the Eva.
As long as the Eva believes there's a pilot and synchronizes, that's enough.
Load the data into Unit 01 and Unit 02.[/code:1]

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Postby V » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:00 am

It's an optical disc that has Rei's thought patterns coded onto it.


No.

This would not explain why they mass-produced so many Rei clones, which it was expicitly stated were "spare parts" for the Dummy System.

A Dummy Plug system consists of a souless (i.e. inert) Rei or Kaworu clone, with a copy of their thought-patterns imprinted....this "thought pattern" thing is presumably similar to how Naoko Akagi said she imprinted her thought patterns onto the Magi supercomputers.

Yes, there is physically a "blank" Rei clone in every Dummy Plug. "Entry Plugs" are huge relative to the small space used by the pilot: the "Dummy Plug" parts are just fitted into another section of the Entry Plug.

(Unless Eva Chronicles reveals a more informative cut-away diagram)...

As for the computer disk drives: 1-that might just be the computer program used in concert with the Dummy Plugs 2-that might just be what the "mind imprint" is imprinted on. But it's not JUST the big computer disk: it *requires* a Rei (or Kaworu) clone.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:34 am

V, the function of the Rei clones in the dummy plug plant, relative to the dummy system itself, is still unresolved. There is decidedly no proof that there are clones anywhere BUT inside that tank. The existence of similar Kaworu clones is entirely fan speculation, as well.

See also the preexisting thread.

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Postby V » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:10 pm

well yes we never see them outside the tank. But then why do they say they are "parts" for the Dummy Plugs?

Is there any supplementary resource that sheds more light onto this?
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Postby Zuggy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:48 pm

V wrote:This would not explain why they mass-produced so many Rei clones, which it was expicitly stated were "spare parts" for the Dummy System.

Ritsuko says the clones are spare parts for Rei, not the dummy system.

[code:1]Misato:
So, this is the source of the dummy plugs?

RITSUKO:
I will show you the truth.

Shinji:
Rei Ayanami?

Misato:
You're not saying the Evas' dummy plugs are...

RITSUKO:
That's right, the part that becomes the core of the dummy system,
and this is the manufacturing plant for it.

Misato:
This is?!

RITSUKO (OFF):
These are just dummies.
And nothing more than parts for Rei.[/code:1]
I always interpreted that line as, say if Rei was injured badly they had loads of spare organs to transplant.

V wrote:A Dummy Plug system consists of a souless (i.e. inert) Rei or Kaworu clone, with a copy of their thought-patterns imprinted....this "thought pattern" thing is presumably similar to how Naoko Akagi said she imprinted her thought patterns onto the Magi supercomputers.

You mean the personality transfer system, right? Naoko doesn't talk about that, but Ritsuko and Misato do...

[code:1]RITSUKO (OFF):
It's a long story. And not a very interesting one, at that.
Do you know about personality transplant OS?

Misato:
Yes, it's a system that implants an individual's personality
into a seventh generation organic computer so it can think.
It's the same technology used for operating the Evas, right?

RITSUKO:
I've heard Magi was the first of them.
My mother developed the technology.[/code:1]
How the P.T. OS is used to operate the Evangelions I dunno.

Also, Ritsuko makes it clear that the dummy plugs are merely digitalised versions of Rei as I've already quoted -

[code:1]RITSUKO:
it's not really possible to digitize a human mind and soul.
Ultimately, it's a fake, an imitation.
Just a machine that emulates a pilot's thinking process.[/code:1]
No mentions of Rei clones at all, or bio-computers. It's made out to be merely a machine, something that emulates an Eva pilot's thought patterns digitally.

V wrote:(Unless Eva Chronicles reveals a more informative cut-away diagram)...

Pretty sure there's a cutaway diagram in one of the NewType issues that shows either end of the entry plug filled with either rockets or a parachute.

V wrote:it *requires* a Rei (or Kaworu) clone.

Why?

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Postby V » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:21 pm

RITSUKO (OFF):
These are just dummies.
And nothing more than parts for Rei.


We should analyze the original Japanese version of this line carefully.


I don't see why they'd need *over a dozen* spare Rei clones even if they're just parts for Rei, and this still doesn't reconcile why Ritsuko says that this is where the core of the Dummy System is made and the clones are the parts for it.
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Postby Sachi » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:34 pm

Zugzwang wrote:Image

Oh, I thought that was just gas coming out of it. But then again, she is in LCL, so there wouldn't be any gas.

V wrote:I don't see why they'd need *over a dozen* spare Rei clones even if they're just parts for Rei

It's for Gendo's back-up Instrumentality Plan. "Rei clones, ATTACK!"

Also, Ritsuko said that the Rei clones are the only shells that can harness a soul. Now, I can either go off on fan based speculation, Or you can do it because this is way over my head. :thumbsup:
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Postby V » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:52 pm

Well its not so much that they have so many as simply that Ritsuko actually says "these are spare parts for the Dummy System"
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Postby Skullraper » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:08 pm

My take on the optical disk; it’s probably running a program that remotely links the Eva to a dummy plug being held elsewhere.

My case against the dummy plugs containing actual bodies; the MP evas (despite suffering massive damage) don’t seem particularly hindered in their abilities. If the plugs contained a synched flesh component it would likely suffer damage along with the eva and thus impede on the eva’s performance. Digitized thought patterns on the other hand would function no different from a computer program and thus wouldn’t be susceptible to pain and emotional response. The spare bodies might function as the template from which the thought patterns are uploaded and digitized.

Of course there’s no saying if the Rei system works exactly the same as the Kaworu system.
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Postby V » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:14 pm

Skullraper wrote:My take on the optical disk; it’s probably running a program that remotely links the Eva to a dummy plug being held elsewhere.



Yes.


My case against the dummy plugs containing actual bodies; the MP evas (despite suffering massive damage) don’t seem particularly hindered in their abilities. If the plugs contained a synched flesh component it would likely suffer damage along with the eva and thus impede on the eva’s performance.


A good point, but...we don't know if that because they aren't "real pilots" with real souls linking with the Evas, they'd actually "synch" normally and suffer damage; it's just a way of tricking the Eva to turn on.

Of course there’s no saying if the Rei system works exactly the same as the Kaworu system.


Yes, though I like to think they're the same.
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Postby BobBQ » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:13 pm

Skullraper wrote:My take on the optical disk; it’s probably running a program that remotely links the Eva to a dummy plug being held elsewhere.

That would be a massively stupid liability compared to having the control systems on board.

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Postby Skullraper » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:33 pm

V wrote:A good point, but...we don't know if that because they aren't "real pilots" with real souls linking with the Evas, they'd actually "synch" normally and suffer damage; it's just a way of tricking the Eva to turn on.


True. Without a soul the body might not even receive feedback from the eva. The digitized signal (in imitation of a soul/mind) is merely being used to awaken the eva.

BobBQ wrote:That would be a massively stupid liability compared to having the control systems on board.


But the entry plug being used by Shinji is not a dummy plug. The dummy plugs are distinct (red). If the dummy system was completely onboard the entry plug there would be no reason to have separate unmanned plugs containing the dummy system.
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Postby V » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:20 pm

Skullraper wrote:The dummy plugs are distinct (red). If the dummy system was completely onboard the entry plug there would be no reason to have separate unmanned plugs containing the dummy system.


That's sort of the halfway step where it can be used as a backup autopilot; the red ones are for when they're not even trying to use a normal pilot.
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Postby Skullraper » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:51 am

V wrote:That's sort of the halfway step where it can be used as a backup autopilot; the red ones are for when they're not even trying to use a normal pilot.


Correct. I’m just saying that the dummy signal doesn’t originate from the backup in the entry plug. The backup program merely receives the signal remotely from a dummy plug and transmits it to the eva.
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Postby Cogboy » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:22 am

Wow, that certainly exploded.
Thanks to Zugwang for pointing out the optical disc in the cockpit, I never noticed that before.
Also thanks to Reichu's link to a previous thread, I have come across these extracts first posted by Anonymous_Evafan:

D&R program book wrote:[Dummy Plug]
The limited nature of the pilots is a serious drawback for Evangelion as an all-purpose weapon. The dummy plug is a simulated entry plug developed to operate the Eva without the pilots as a means of overcoming this drawback. The personality of Rei Ayanami is transplanted to the dummy plugs. In addition, soulless Rei Ayanami bodies floating in a giant tank are used as the core of the dummy system.

The dummy system was first used on EVA-01 in the battle against the 13th Angel Bardiel. However, the Eva's behavior at that time did not resemble Rei's piloting in the least, and instead gave the impression of unbridled, feral brutality.


D&R special edition program book wrote:[Dummy Plug]
A mock entry plug developed to achieve unmanned operation of the Eva. The personality of the First Children = Rei Ayanami is transplanted to the dummy plugs. Digitization of the soul is impossible, so the dummy plug is merely a "fake" which simulates thought patterns. However, it is extremely useful for the Evangelion which, due to the limited nature of the pilots, is lacking as an all-purpose weapon. Incidentally, the Eva series units from Eva-05 onward use dummy plugs into which the personality of Kaworu Nagisa has been transplanted.

[Dummy System]
A system designed to simulate the thought patterns of the pilot and thus trick the Eva into thinking that the pilot is synchronizing. The system used in Eva-01 imitated the personality of Rei Ayanami. This system was first released by order of NERV Commander Gendou Ikari in the battle against the 13th Angel. However, the Eva's behavior at that time did not resemble Rei's piloting in the least, and instead appeared to be a berserked state. It seems that only simple commands can be given such as to commence attack, etc.


RCB wrote:[Dummy Plug]
A mock entry plug developed in order to activate and operate the Eva without the pilots. Although the personal pattern of the Children is transplanted to the plug, digitization of the soul is impossible, so the dummy plug merely simulates thought patterns. The dummy plugs prepared by NERV used the personal pattern of the First Children = Rei Ayanami, whereas the dummy plugs prepared by SEELE used the personal pattern of the Fifth Children = Nagisa Kaworu.


NGE2 CI wrote:23. Dummy Plug

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

An entry plug developed for use with the Dummy System. Even if no pilot is present, it can activate an Eva by making her think that a pilot is there.

C. Confidential Information

A copy of a personality is made in the Dummy Plug, but a soul cannot be copied. Why can't it be done, or how would it be done? As far as the technology branches of Seele and Nerv are concerned, it is a theme of research integral to seeking out the Path to God, and study into how to deal with the problem has spanned many years. Examples of failure include Yui and Asuka's mother. The Dummy Plug is something that came about in the midst of that research.

D. In-Depth Information

The Dummy System is an artificial soul that was developed at the end of the research. In terms of functionality, however, the Dummy System was severely subpar: Although it could make Eva activate, that was the limit of its capacity.


All of this info (though some more official than the rest) seems to point towards the complete lack of need for a human body, let alone two.

It's interesting to see things turning in this direction, completely opposite to what most of us had guessed.
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Postby Zuggy » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:40 am

Sachiel_13 wrote:Also, Ritsuko said that the Rei clones are the only shells that can harness a soul. Now, I can either go off on fan based speculation, Or you can do it because this is way over my head. :thumbsup:

Ritsuko says Rei was the only one created during Project E who intrinsically had a soul (Lilith's), all the prototype, test type, and production model Evangelions after that did not intrinsically have souls and needed to have souls embedded in them as "the chamber of gufh was empty," which probably has something to do with neither Adam's or Lilith's soul being in their proper bodies at that point, seeing as they both hold the keys to opening that chamber.

V wrote:Well its not so much that they have so many as simply that Ritsuko actually says "these are spare parts for the Dummy System"

Evidence?

The L.T.P. also agrees with the ADV platnium subs:

[code:1]Ritsuko: These are dummies.
And nothing but parts for Rei.[/code:1]
V wrote:I don't see why they'd need *over a dozen* spare Rei clones even if they're just parts for Rei, and this still doesn't reconcile why Ritsuko says that this is where the core of the Dummy System is made and the clones are the parts for it.

Assuming the empty vessels simply fall off of Lilith they might not have had a choice but to have loads of them there.

Maybe you could so a search through the scripts for the word "core" and see what comes up besides that scene, as I don't know what Ritsuko means by the vessels being the core of the dummy system.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:54 am

This bit of dialogue:

Misato:
So, this is the source of the dummy plugs?

RITSUKO:
I will show you the truth.

Shinji:
Rei Ayanami?

Misato:
You're not saying the Evas' dummy plugs are...

RITSUKO:
That's right, the part that becomes the core of the dummy system,
and this is the manufacturing plant for it.


is delivered/translated ambiguously enough that it can be taken several ways. Misato says "you're not saying the Evas' dummy plugs are..." and Ritsuko says what she does, which is a very strange answer indeed. So "the part" is, I'm assuming, referring to Rei, and that is the manufacturing plant. Now, call me crazy, but I don't think they'd show us this rather indelible image of the "Reiquarium" and not be referring to precisely that in all of this dialogue. So, IMO, the dummy Rei's have to be a part of the DPS somehow.

In terms of exactly how it operates, I think the only absolute known elements is that the DPS is an imitation of a pilot's thought process. But other than that, it's pretty vague. I think, perhaps, some answers might be found in what we know about the synch process. We know that the Eva/pilot connection certainly begins at the psychic level (or, would that soul-ic? Soul-ish?), but there's certainly a physical side to it as well. So what we end up with is a body/mind/soul connection between pilot and Eva. How crucial is the body/soul part in terms of the pilot? Well, I guess that's the question. Why would the Eva need a pilot body to synch with and function?

One argument would be that the body acts as a conduit of sorts. Or perhaps it's the reverse (the mind/soul acts as a conduit to the body). In which case it'd be like trying to plug something into an outlet without the plug... or without the outlet.

If I were to suggest what to do on the Wiki I'd submit that all we know is about the faked thought patterns, but everything else is left unexplained.

D&R program book wrote:[Dummy Plug]
In addition, soulless Rei Ayanami bodies floating in a giant tank are used as the core of the dummy system.


Yeah, they definitely play a part in it. But WTF is the "core of the dummy system", and how are the Rei clones its core? :eyepop:
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Postby V » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:25 am

I agree that they wouldn't bother showing that many clones with that line of dialogue unless its meant that they're used in the Dummy Plugs.

Official resources are a little vague but at least D&R book agrees with this.

Given that it is supposed to trick the Eva into thinking there is a real pilot, I think it would need a real body to function with.

It seems probable that the Kaworu ones used in the MP Evas could be bodies, but what we're running into is the doubt that there's a "blank" Rei clone stuck into Eva-01's Entry Plug. I think there must be.
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