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Eva Yojimbo
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:32 pm

Defectron wrote:
Now bebop might not have as much depth as eva but it does have more then your average anime.
I will grant this, but it's still not what I'd call comparatively deep... Of course, I'm judging against all of film so perhaps it's a little unfair. Bebop does hold up well (depth wise) to most anime I've seen.

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All this means is that it clicked with whoever happened to use it as a template, both in and out of anime there are some things regarded as classics that to be honest I just don't think are very good. - So if something does turn out to be influential all this means is that there are fans of said work in the industry that get influenced by that particular work. While this might mean that said work is actually good, this isn't always nessecerily the case.
Well, ideas are important. Sometimes ideas get presented and badly executed and that's where the template comes from. It's like all the templates that Eva borrowed from but greatly improved upon as well. What I'm saying is that creating ideas is much harder than working from a template. Though articulating ideas well is just as difficult.

Defectron wrote:However I'm not saying that said works shouldn't be aknowledged for their importance, what I am saying is that you shouldn't just say something is good because it turned out to influence other things. Being important and being actually good should be two seperate things.
I'd still say that originality and influence are not only one of the more tangible aspects of measuring greatness we have, but are one of the most important. I guess what you're getting is the difference between ideas and articulation. If the articulation isn't good, it doesn't matter how good the ideas are. But I'd argue that if there are no ideas there's nothing to articulate. So both are absolutely crucial. And I see nothing wrong with listing something of monumental importance on a list of "greatest".

Defectron wrote:You should like something for what it is, not for what it did.
The two are not as inseparable as that. It's the same reason people who've heard great 70s rock find modern rock boring because it's a mere rehash of ideas while fans of modern rock say its old ideas presented in a new way. In truth, sometimes they're both right. But I'm merely saying I don't think you can discount influence and originality when critiquing greatness. Without new ideas, we have no fiction.
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Postby CitizenGeek » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:45 pm

chee wrote:Oh, and Otomo is awesome as well. I'll take Akira or even Steamboy over the all the moe-tard otaku BS that seems to be popular nowadays. (I cannot bring myself to watch Lucky Star.)


You are so right! Moe is BS of the highest order. Lucky Star epitomises said BS - the characters all look 10 years old and spend their time getting into mindlessly 'cute' and helpless situations. And the tragic thing is, more people are watching crap like Clannad than are watching something truly original like Ghost Hound :/
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Postby Trigger's Elysium » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:50 pm

I think Clannad is a great show. It's very well constructed and animated, and the comedy elements and drama elements are both very high quality, though there hasn't been a terrible amount of drama YET. It's by KyoAni and it's adapted from a Key visual novel, big deal.
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Postby CitizenGeek » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:52 pm

the_seventh_child wrote:Lists like these make me think how f*cking underrated "Monster" is.


Well, Monster is a manga adaptation so it probably wouldn't be fair to celebrate it as an anime creation.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:54 pm

CitizenGeek wrote:
Well, Monster is a manga adaptation so it probably wouldn't be fair to celebrate it as an anime creation.
You'd be discounting a good portion of anime in general. Akira was adapted from a manga even...
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Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
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Postby BrikHaus » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:02 pm

the_seventh_child wrote:Lists like these make me think how f*cking underrated "Monster" is.

Well, I'm fairly certain that this list only comprises titles that have been released in the U.S. That would exclude Monster from participating.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:29 am

CitizenGeek wrote:Well, Monster is a manga adaptation so it probably wouldn't be fair to celebrate it as an anime creation.


There are very few anime that didn't start out as a manga, 4-koma or game, even if they don't start out by directly shadowing the pre-existing material. This season's Blue Drop is probably the the most tenuously related to its manga that I've seen in a while, even counting Bokurano.
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Postby CitizenGeek » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:42 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:You'd be discounting a good portion of anime in general. Akira was adapted from a manga even...


But, most of the manga adaptations in that list are not completely the same as the manga. Akira and Fullmetal Alchemist are both very different plot-wise, to their original manga.

That said, I'm pretty sure Brik Haus is right - Monster wasn't released in the US, so it wouldn't make it onto that list.

What's SaiKano like? I was going to get it a while back, but was put off by people who said there was a ridiculous amount of crying in it.
Last edited by CitizenGeek on Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby the_seventh_child » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:42 am

BrikHaus wrote:
the_seventh_child wrote:Lists like these make me think how f*cking underrated "Monster" is.

Well, I'm fairly certain that this list only comprises titles that have been released in the U.S. That would exclude Monster from participating.

Hmm, haven't really thought it that way. I guess you have a point.

@Citizen: About Saikano, i have't watched it either. I have heard though, that it is one of the best anime dramas out there, so i guess i'm willing to give it a chance when i have the time.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:35 am

the_seventh_child wrote:About Saikano, i have't watched it either. I have heard though, that it is one of the best anime dramas out there


That's what I heard. So I even ordered a copy from the States (just before a UK edition came out last year). And boy, was I disappointed.

It isn't even discreet about trying to manipulate your emotions -- about as subtle as a flung house-brick, I'd say. So much pathos it was pathetic. If I'd done a fansub try-before-you-buy, I'd've dropped it after 2-3 episodes; as it was, very much the worst series I've watched to the end.

It was too busy rubbing my nose in the "you should be weepy here" for me to have any genuine emotional response to the events other than numbness.
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Postby No. 44 » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:35 am

you failed to mention Cromartie High!
the threat must be physically annihilated @#$%!

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Postby Defectron » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:45 pm

I'd still say that originality and influence are not only one of the more tangible aspects of measuring greatness we have, but are one of the most important. I guess what you're getting is the difference between ideas and articulation. If the articulation isn't good, it doesn't matter how good the ideas are. But I'd argue that if there are no ideas there's nothing to articulate. So both are absolutely crucial. And I see nothing wrong with listing something of monumental importance on a list of "greatest".


I suppose if you put it like that originality should be counted among the criteria that judge how good something is. However that'll only get it so far if it doesn't do well in the other areas. For example if I made a list I wouldn't put something on a list I make if I didn't enjoy watching it even if the idea was original. For example pokemon was pretty much the first of its kind in the anime industry, but I pretty much hate pokemon and similer anime so it wouldnt go on a list of top anime I would make.


And the tragic thing is, more people are watching crap like Clannad than are watching something truly original like Ghost Hound :/


Well that's just how things are in the anime industry these days, the vast majority of what comes out of it is either bad or forgettable given the target markets are usually kids and moe otaku, you need to look around for the good things. On the other hand given how vast the number of titles put out yearly (something in the upper hundreds at least) there's usually enough good series to keep me satisfied. If more of the series produced actually were good I wouldn't have time to watch them all.

About Saikano, i have't watched it either. I have heard though, that it is one of the best anime dramas out there


That's what I heard. So I even ordered a copy from the States (just before a UK edition came out last year). And boy, was I disappointed.


I didn't think Saikano was that bad, it's not perfect but it could be worse. Though if your looking for a tragic sort of anime series I think Now and then here and there is a better then this was.
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Postby BrikHaus » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:05 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:
the_seventh_child wrote:About Saikano, i have't watched it either. I have heard though, that it is one of the best anime dramas out there
It isn't even discreet about trying to manipulate your emotions -- about as subtle as a flung house-brick, I'd say. So much pathos it was pathetic. If I'd done a fansub try-before-you-buy, I'd've dropped it after 2-3 episodes; as it was, very much the worst series I've watched to the end.

This man speaks the truth. Saikano is crap.
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Postby Defectron » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:28 pm

Well I got around to watching the last episode of saikano, gotta say that was one of the most confusing endings I've seen in any anime, it made evas look easy to understand.

My biggest complaint about saikano is how stuff just sort of happens with no explanation. There's a world war with no explanation, a girl gets turned into a whatever it is she got turned into with no explanation. Now maybe the people who made this didn't intend for those details to be that important since its mostly focusing on the tragic love story, but they couldve thrown something in there to make all that make a bit more sense.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:17 pm

Defectron wrote:
I suppose if you put it like that originality should be counted among the criteria that judge how good something is. However that'll only get it so far if it doesn't do well in the other areas.
I think we're in agreement here. :)
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Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby No. 44 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:19 pm

i think G gundam deserves some mention here
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Postby Squiggy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:30 pm

No. 44 wrote:i think G gundam deserves some mention here

The lack of Gundam is rather disturbing
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:09 pm

I don't know how you don't include one Gundam. It's not my favorite series, but it's like the hardest of hardcore sci-fi in anime. I know some folks who've gone nuts analyzing Gundams construction and weaponry and wonky anime physics. It also has some interesting moments. Zeta was pretty good, and I liked Wing despite the cheesiness.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Themaninblack » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:13 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I don't know how you don't include one Gundam. It's not my favorite series, but it's like the hardest of hardcore sci-fi in anime. I know some folks who've gone nuts analyzing Gundams construction and weaponry and wonky anime physics. It also has some interesting moments. Zeta was pretty good, and I liked Wing despite the cheesiness.


Not only that but it is THE meha anime genre. It helped define everything.
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Postby Squiggy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:31 pm

Themaninblack wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:I don't know how you don't include one Gundam. It's not my favorite series, but it's like the hardest of hardcore sci-fi in anime. I know some folks who've gone nuts analyzing Gundams construction and weaponry and wonky anime physics. It also has some interesting moments. Zeta was pretty good, and I liked Wing despite the cheesiness.


Not only that but it is THE meha anime genre. It helped define everything.


Pretty much. Go Nagai basically invented the super robot genre which later led to Tomino taking it a step farther and eventually inventing the real robot type genre.

Also, I hear Tomino turns 66 today.
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