Mr. Tines wrote:Another long thread on the topic (probably the one that kt-san mentioned); though that was long before the idea that Kaworu, avatar of Adam, might not be what a superficial glance would suggest.

<insert>

@Magami
Not only Asuka's superstructure - the Hakone reservoir 2003 flashback has him grabbing for the goodies too.

And Fuyutsuki was doing the same thing with his eyes.

However the juxtaposition in Instrumentality of "What do you wish for?" and the background image labelled as "a woman's chest" in the storyboards is also accompanied by the Shinjiquarium, and that places a whole new spin on that wish.

Uh, what?

Once I sleep, I'll post a little something regarding a subject that nobody seems to have touched upon. Goodness gracious me.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 06:36 GMT

LuigiHann wrote:Maybe Kaworu's actually straight, and he finds Shinji attractive because Shinji's such a freakin' girl?

It's kind of ironic that you'd make such a statement of such a misogynistic nature while using an avatar of one of many females from Eva who defy your apparent belief in femenine weakness.

Females>Shinji.

At any rate, if Kaworu had any taste he would have gone for Freddie Mercury.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 07:29 GMT

Heh. Who says that when I called Shinji a girl, I was referring to his weakness? Maybe I was referring to his essencially female character design, hmm? No offense to actual girls by comparing them to Shinji, but I get the impression that "feminine" is an intentional part of Shinji's character.
Seriously, how many times does Asuka or Misato say "You're a boy, aren't you?!" and Shinji just frowns and doesn't respond?

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 14:00 GMT

LuigiHann wrote:Heh. Who says that when I called Shinji a girl, I was referring to his weakness? Maybe I was referring to his essencially female character design, hmm? No offense to actual girls by comparing them to Shinji, but I get the impression that "feminine" is an intentional part of Shinji's character.

PIN-PON!!

Seriously, how many times does Asuka or Misato say "You're a boy, aren't you?!" and Shinji just frowns and doesn't respond?

Shinji: "L-leave me alone! Don't they have a psychological term for this sort of thing? It starts with a 'p', I think...and has a 'j' somewhere in the middle..."

Rather than calling Shinji "feminine", IMO it might be better to view NGE as a show full of "gender-bending". That is, the sexes going outside of the "roles" you might expect (or that are expected of them). Shinji just gets such a hard time because... he's, well, the sort of guy that he is.

But it's interesting that you mention this, LH, since it actually might be a pretty important part of what's going on in #24.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 14:27 GMT

With all this theorising on Shinji's sexual orientation, perhaps now might be a good time to resurrect Mr. Tines' old "necrophilia" theory!

On a more serious note, I'd like to mention something that was mentioned on the TrivialBeing forums some time back. Namely; How can Shinji love anyone, when he does not even love himself? It's important to note that it would be difficult for someone as depressed as Shinji to have strong feelings of love for anyone else.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 21:55 GMT

I think that's a big part of why he can't connect with any of the main characters of the show. I think he "loved" Kaworu because Kaworu loved him, and that's what he thought he'd been looking for, in a sense.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:12 GMT

OMF wrote:On a more serious note, I'd like to mention something that was mentioned on the TrivialBeing forums some time back. Namely; How can Shinji love anyone, when he does not even love himself? It's important to note that it would be difficult for someone as depressed as Shinji to have strong feelings of love for anyone else.

Better ask Gendo how he manages to love Yui so much.
Gendo:
I don't believe that I can be loved by others... I'm not worthy of love.

LuigiHann wrote:I think that's a big part of why he can't connect with any of the main characters of the show. I think he "loved" Kaworu because Kaworu loved him, and that's what he thought he'd been looking for, in a sense.

So... why did Kaworu love him?

The real reasons for Shinji and Kaworu's bond seem to be, IMO, left as one of NGE's greater mysteries. But not an inherently unsolvable one.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:33 GMT

Why do so many deny the existance of other forms of love that are not derived from sexuality?

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:45 GMT

OMF wrote:With all this theorising on Shinji's sexual orientation, perhaps now might be a good time to resurrect Mr. Tines' old "necrophilia" theory!

To be fair, we only see him as a practising somnophiliac - another practice that avoids having to deal with a person.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:47 GMT

I've never had a whole lot of problem with the issue of why Kaworu loves Shinji. First off, the way he says it is like he doesn't think it's a big deal. I always assumed that he just loves everyone, in a Jesus kind of way. I'm not sure if that still applies, but it seems to suit his demeanor... And like I said earlier, I do think that his openness about his feelings is just as a means of contrast between him and Shinji; Shinji fears others, and avoids any sort of contact, whereas Kaworu loves others, approaches people without fear, and speaks his mind without worry. That said, it doesn't leave me with much of a clue as to why he singles out Shinji specifically, just why it seems normal for him to act the way he does once they've met. I will say that I wouldn't be very surprised if Kaworu said "I love you" to anyone else in the show, but the bond with Shinji is the one that has time to develope because Kaworu's directness and Shinji's tendency to do whatever anyone else says lead to them spending a lot of time together.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:50 GMT

The Eva Monkey wrote:Why do so many deny the existance of other forms of love that are not derived from sexuality?

I have to agree with this.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:57 GMT

The Eva Monkey wrote:Why do so many deny the existance of other forms of love that are not derived from sexuality?

MTV and Freud...

On that note, watching people debate the sexuality of Shinji from Evangelion or Samwize from LOTR makes me LOL

EDIT: On a side note, in all seriousness, I'm sure that the producers of Evangelion knew fully well what sort of interpretations what kind of implications people will draw from these kind of scenes (especially given the abundance of fan service in the series that it is hard to not look at something in a non-sexual light in the series). Actually though, if you make an attempt to put the sexual context out of mind, there is nothing overtly sexual about the exchanges between Shinji and Kaworu.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:59 GMT

Batous Eye wrote:Consider episode 24, where Karou invites Shinji to sleep togethor in the same bed. In the very next scene, they are naked in the shower room and Karou touches Shinji's hand. (The significance for this gesture is SEX, as one can see in the Cross-reference from ep.23 where Misato comes to Shinji in his room and says "This is all I can do for you...". She then touches his hand in the same manner.)

There is a scene that may follow at the very beginning of the next episode. Shinji is next to the lake with Misato at night with the moon gleaning on the waves. He is balling his eyes out and he says "He should have lived! Not me!". and then "I loved him!".

How are we expected to interpret this? Is the implication that Shinji and Karou were homosexual lovers? Do you see any symbolism that would indicate a sexual encounter?

This is another debate,weather or not Shinji and Karou were ever more than friends.I belive that they were nothing but friends,best friends.Dont forget,Shinji doesnt have a lot of friends,and Karou was even closer to Shinji than Toji or Aida.

I belive Shinji said the "love" comment out of his frienship with him.Nothing more,or in a homosexual way.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 23:02 GMT

The Eva Monkey wrote:Why do so many deny the existance of other forms of love that are not derived from sexuality?

Exactly. And since Kaworu is probably "fresh out of the tank" and has very little human experience, I don't think he even realizes that people might put a sexual meaning to his words.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 00:13 GMT

thewayneiac wrote:Exactly. And since Kaworu is probably "fresh out of the tank" and has very little human experience...

From what Kaworu-kun says, it sounds exactly the opposite to me.

And, what gives you the impression that Kaworu is "fresh out of the tank", as opposed to, "has been prancing merrily around restricted areas of Germany* for 14 years"? (I mean... what tank? )

* I.e., "wherever 'Papa Keel' says I can go".

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 00:24 GMT

Reichu wrote:From what Kaworu-kun says, it sounds exactly the opposite to me.

And, what gives you the impression that Kaworu is "fresh out of the tank", as opposed to, "has been prancing merrily around restricted areas of Germany* for 14 years"? (I mean... what tank? )



* I.e., "wherever 'Papa Keel' says I can go".

If he's not "fresh out of the tank", then he was raised in a cellar somewhere like Rei. I look at Kaworu's innocence in this scene that same way I look at Rei's in Ep. 5; she has so little human experience that she has no idea of the effect that her nudity might be having upon Shinji. Thus she dresses quite casually. Similarly, Kaworu has no idea what "sleeping together with" Shinji would mean to most people. I don't think for a minute that he was coming on to Shinji in this scene.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 00:41 GMT

The tank in vol. 7 of the manga perhaps? Though I fail to see the homoeroticness of that particular scene.... Cyborg/Angel....not seeing it. My yaoi fangirl is starting to die a little.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 00:41 GMT

Treize is gay.

Meet me behind the shed in 5 minutes.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 01:27 GMT

EDIT: All the replies seemed to disappear somewhere...

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 02:59 GMT