Reichu wrote:Which kind of makes me wonder... If, at that point in Instrumentality (since, like, all minds are connected and stuff), Shinji knew everything that Rei knew, why did Rei need to tell Shinji what was going on?

Anno has a story to tell, so he has dramatize the process. If he showed GNR fall apart, etc, without offering some indication as to why it was happening, the audience would be lost. EoE portrays the process in a very compressed fashion; #26 offers 20+ minutes of blah, blah, blah about the psychological and philosophical issues involved. As I've mentioned before, if he were to show the physical reality of Instrumentality, it would be something like a bunch of little red dots just hanging there, winking at each other...

evolve wrote:well before your informative post here, I had assumed that the part where Kaworu (I spelled it right this time!) shows up was "symbolic" (ie: didn't exactly happen) or something like that.

Word to the wise: when you see something onscreen in Evangelion, as a general rule, your 'default' assumption should be that it is, in fact, happening. This applies even to scenes taking place within Instrumentality; for while such scenes are not depicting physical reality, that does not by any means mean that it is not, in some sense, happening. Think of Instrumentality as a sort of Pseudo-reality, i.e. a manifestation of the interaction of the minds of the characters involved...

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 03:52 GMT

Reichu wrote:What's so strange about it? Gendou apparently needed Adam's soul as well as his body, so when he got ahold of Kaworu's head, he just did a little soul body-switcheroo. With both of the needed ingredients in his palm, he fondled Rei and lost everything as a result. Adam absorbed into Rei, Rei absorbed into Lilith... What doesn't make sense about Kaworu showing up?

If you're not in the "Kaworu = Adam's Soul" camp ... it doesn't really make sense ... or for that matter (even if he was) why Adam would choose Kaworu's form (just to make Shinji more comfortable? sounds like a cop-out answer to me ... heh).

Reichu wrote:I'm still firm that if Instrumentality had TRULY succeeded, there would be no Shinji to decide to end it. Shinji, and even Rei -- both would disappear as personal identity is eradicated.

Yeah ... I guess if you discount everything Rei says about there being no boundaries and everything being one ... then yeah .. you'd be right.

What do you imagine the situation to be?

Rei: "Well Shinji ... this is a taste of Instrumentality ... download is complete ... now that you've only seen a little — but not the whole thing mind you — would you like to 'Run Program' or 'Cancel and UnInstall?'"

In episode 25, the picture of Instrumentality is a little different. The picture painted in 25 is Shinji all by himself, having destroyed the rest of humanity by wanting his own, safe little world. Such a world only existed without other people — in other words, without individuality. It was then in 26 that Shinji realized that in a world with nothing, there was nothing with which to define himself. Having only nothing to compare himself to, he himself was nothing. Instrumentality in 25 and 26 was a success, until the last 30 seconds of 26 when Shinji decides that's not the world he wants.

It's a different picture from the movie ... but the same effect.

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 20:32 GMT

Knives wrote:If you're not in the "Kaworu = Adam's Soul" camp ... it doesn't really make sense ... or for that matter (even if he was) why Adam would choose Kaworu's form (just to make Shinji more comfortable? sounds like a cop-out answer to me ... heh).

Begging your pardon? Last I checked, I was advocating the connection between Kaworu and Adam... As for Adam choosing to appear as Kaworu, his 'false' Lilim incarnation -- it's probably the same reason as for why Lilith chooses to appear as Rei, in that her sense of self has been redefined by her experiences as a mortal, or some such thing. I made a whole thread about this a while back that you might find somewhat informative.

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 14:37 GMT

See ... I also sense a problem of not reading closely. You asked "What's so strange about it?" regarding Kaworu in the Instrumentality. I said "If you're (meaning 'if one') is not in the 'Kaworu = Adam's Soul' camp, then it doesn't make sense (in other words, it's strange)."

So ... I wasn't saying you didn't think Kaworu contained Adam's soul. I was saying that if you don't believe he does, then this scene can be difficult to explain (in fact, now that I'm thinking about it ... what I previously called a "cop-out" answer, I'm thinking may be the case, but under different conditions). I was answering your question, "what's so strange about it?"
That's all.

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 19:45 GMT

Shin-seiki wrote:...Word to the wise: when you see something onscreen in Evangelion, as a general rule, your 'default' assumption should be that it is, in fact, happening. This applies even to scenes taking place within Instrumentality; for while such scenes are not depicting physical reality, that does not by any means mean that it is not, in some sense, happening. Think of Instrumentality as a sort of Pseudo-reality, i.e. a manifestation of the interaction of the minds of the characters involved...

thanks for the tip. I think I'm finally starting to understand some of the things I didn't get at all before. On top of that, I had a revelation today while watching EoE: the possibility of timeline jumps.

additionally, I know this is probably old, but in the evangelion.ca FAQ, Carl Jung is mentioned. in his little section of the FAQ, it says:

Carl Gustav Jung was one of the fathers of modern psychoanalysis. He developed many theories, such as personality types, archetypes, the collective unconscious, and individuation. He viewed consciousness as multi-layered, where, unlike Freud, the unconscious mind had a great deal to offer us. Jung's belief was that our Self, the truest form of our psyche, would only truly be revealed if we unified the different levels of our conscious and unconscious minds[/u].

I probably don't have to explain.

Originally posted on: 19-Sep-2004, 05:00 GMT