Human Instrumentality = Mass Nirvana?

saiyajin prince [ANF] · Postby **saiyajin prince [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

dragon_heart wrote:I agree with Shin-seiki: “Extinction of Self” is a pretty good definition of Nirvana, although some Buddhist would say that definition is a little too nihilist. I have also heard Nirvana being defined as submitting to the universal void or becoming one with the universal mind. The Vendettas (one of the six philosophical sects of the Hindus) have a similar concept of separating one's soul (Atman) from the body. In order to achieve that state, you have to renounce all material things. You are also supposed to meditate, act virtuous and do some other things.

Sounds pretty hard....I tried meditating once, the more you try to clear your mind, the harder it is and then it seems like time just go really really slow. It was boring, I couldn't do it again. I know about if people need to reach Nirvana they have to give up all material things.....I could never do that

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 03:49 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Give up... material things?

::eyes her books, DVDs, import CDs, and plastic Alien Queen possessively::

No Nirvana for me!

And, saiyajin prince, you're right -- meditation is bloody hard. My psychiatrist (or is that psychologist? I always get the two confused) wanted me to try it, but I didn't do to well. Actually, I think it made me cry spontaneously, and that's why I never wanted to do it again. OH, THE PAIN!!!

Not that anyone here really needed to know that.

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 04:02 GMT

saiyajin prince [ANF] · Postby **saiyajin prince [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Why don't I find that hard to believe that you see a pyschiatrist or pyschologist!

Wait...now you confused me! what's a pyschologist?

I tried different ways but never been able to, tried on my head, under the shower, with music....don't know why I thought that would work, but I gave up a long time ago

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 04:15 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

saiyajin prince wrote:Why don't I find that hard to believe that you see a pyschiatrist or pyschologist!

Wait...now you confused me! what's a pyschologist?

Actually, I see both. Psychologists (the Ph.D. side of things) are more commonly known as a "shrinks" -- you go in, bare your soul, get hypnotized if you're into that sort of thing. The psychiatrists -- the ones with the M.D.s -- prescribe medication for psychological "disorders" if they be needed. Given my pedigree (there's depression, bipolar, ADD, and various other things on both sides of the family tree), I need to see both.

Truth to tell, though, most people could benefit from one, the other, or both. There's more shame in leaving a problem alone than getting help for it. In that sense... I'm one of the lucky ones. Contrary to popular opinion, seeing a psychotherapist is not a bad thing. (Well... depends on who you're seeing. Those Freudians scare me.)

Off-topic, as usual. But, hey, psychological stuff vaguely relates back to Eva.

If only our favorite characters got to talk out THEIR problems every two weeks.

...but then, we wouldn't have much of an anime.

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 05:06 GMT

tv33 [ANF] · Postby **tv33 [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

I wonder what it would be like if I was their Psychologist.....

........................................ ...................

Psychologist tv33: So Shinji what seems to be the problem?

Shinji: No one likes me!

Psychologist tv33: And why do you think that is?

Shinji: Because I am sneaky and weak, I don't deserve peoples love.

Psychologist tv33: Well you got a good point there.

Shinji: AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

The next day.

Psychologist tv33: So Misato what seems to be the problem?

Misato: I have been drinking too much lately....It causes me to do things I normally wouldn't. Dirty things......

Psychologist tv33: You don't say.......
Oh, Let me refill your glass for you.

The day after that.

Psychologist tv33: So Gendo what seems to be the problem

Gendo: Nothing, everything is going according to plan.

Psychologist tv33: I cant help you if you don't open up to me.

Gendo: I don't have time for such non-sense, contact me when you have something relevant to say. *Gendo hops on a helicopter*

Psychologist tv33: Wait you forgot to pay your bill!!

........................................ .....................

Yeah, what would be sweet!

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 05:20 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Could use a little of Rachel's Grammar-Snob Touch... But that made me laugh. "Good work, tv33." Now you have to make a mini-series.

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 05:26 GMT

tv33 [ANF] · Postby **tv33 [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Reichu wrote:Could use a little of Rachel's Grammar-Snob Touch...

Give me a brake it is 2 o'clock in the morning!

I am glade you like it, it just could be the next big thing to happen to Eva!! (Or its death and destruction, one of the two

)

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2003, 05:28 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Oh, this is classic stuff.. Dr. Nick's "The Real Reason Why Keel is a Cyborg" AND tv33's "Playing Shrink to NGE's Cast". For the sake of posterity, this must be bumped.

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2004, 14:19 GMT

evolve [ANF] · Postby **evolve [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Dr. Nick wrote:Since you asked...

It was actually just a one stupid thought that led to another: There was this discussion about what really happened during the Second Impact, and I started to wonder how in the name of Jebus they got Adam back from Antarctica afterwards. Think about it, he was shrinked into a true pocket monster and ended up on the bottom of a gigantic explosion crater filled with water and LCL and whatnot. SEELE must have had hard time finding him!

And almost instantly I got this vision: The old cultist-dudes have rented a fishing boat, and Keel, being the youngest and greenest of the members, must do the diving...

*Keel tries to climb back to the boat*
Keel: "I don't want to! The water is too cold! And it smells like blood!"
older SEELE member: "Whining, whining, always whining. Pick yourself up and show us that you're not just a useless brat!"
*he kicks Keel over the railing*
*SPLASH!*
Keel: "Aaargh! I'm freezing! I can't feel my legs!!!"
*older SEELE member throws him with an empty beer can, and Keel has to dive*
older SEELE member: "What a wuss."
*other members nod agreeingly*

(But of course in the end Keel finds Adam, and after that he quickly becomes the leader of the whole bunch, because with his new mechanical legs he can kick other member's asses so badly that no-one dares to oppose him. An inspiring story about willpower and determination, don't you think?)

I've got a better theory:

older SEELE member: ok, Keele. I'll hold this football, and you run up and kick it!
Keel: ok! I'm really gonna do it this year!
*Keel runs up to kick the football and older SEELE member pulls the football away at the last minute. Keel does a gainer and falls in a tangled mess, cracking both his legs*
older SEELE member: I can't go through with it!
Keel: Arrrrrgh! My legs are broken!

seriously, though...

the concept of instrumentality also has parallels to the theories of Dr. Timothy Leary (if you've see Serial Experiments: Lain, you might already know what I'm talking about), and the idea of a "global brain" (here's a link: http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm). although, from what I've seen and interpreted, they skip from the fourth circuit (the level most humans are at) to the eighth level (the global brain, complementality, nirvana, etc.). could this be why they failed?

Originally posted on: 14-Sep-2004, 23:23 GMT

Knives [ANF] · Postby **Knives [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

evolve wrote:although, from what I've seen and interpreted, they skip from the fourth circuit (the level most humans are at) to the eighth level (the global brain, complementality, nirvana, etc.). could this be why they failed?

... Why who failed? Instrumentality was a success ...

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 02:04 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Knives wrote:... Why who failed? Instrumentality was a success ...

Not really. Shinji pulled the plug when he finally realized how much it sucked.

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 04:16 GMT

Knives [ANF] · Postby **Knives [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

He may have pulled the plug on the whole damning Humanity aspect of it, but the process was a success.

... Erm ... but I'm sure the "damning Humanity" concept is up for debate around these parts as well — Reichu?

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 07:46 GMT

evolve [ANF] · Postby **evolve [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:49 am

Knives wrote:He may have pulled the plug on the whole damning Humanity aspect of it, but the process was a success.

... Erm ... but I'm sure the "damning Humanity" concept is up for debate around these parts as well — Reichu?

I guess technically it worked, but the idea behind it was to create one perfect being, and we all know how that turned out...

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 15:37 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

Instrumentality was not a success. The process started, but it was never carried to completion -- to create, as evolve said, one perfect being (or "hive mind", as Dr. Nick always put it).

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 21:29 GMT

Knives [ANF] · Postby **Knives [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

... and what would you call Uber-Rei-Shinji? Given that "it" said itself that it was that one being.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 00:55 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

Knives wrote:... and what would you call Uber-Rei-Shinji? Given that "it" said itself that it was that one being.

If all life had become one perfect being, how was Shinji still aware of himself as an individual?

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 03:40 GMT

Knives [ANF] · Postby **Knives [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

I'll need to watch EoE again to see how Shinji refers to Rei and himself, but it's clear by "Rei's" speech that Instrumentality had been a success. Shinji, being in the driver's seat, decided he didn't like that outcome.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 14:28 GMT

evolve [ANF] · Postby **evolve [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

Knives wrote:I'll need to watch EoE again to see how Shinji refers to Rei and himself, but it's clear by "Rei's" speech that Instrumentality had been a success. Shinji, being in the driver's seat, decided he didn't like that outcome.

exactly. the process worked (humanity was melded into a "hive mind"), but I think Seele's plans involved things staying that way, and they didn't. therefore, the plan failed overall. am I making sense here?

what I don't get is the fact that Shinji and Rei were actually there when instrumentality was in effect. and then Kaoru shows up! wtf?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 21:19 GMT

Reichu [ANF] · Postby **Reichu [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

evolve wrote:what I don't get is the fact that Shinji and Rei were actually there when instrumentality was in effect. and then Kaoru shows up! wtf?!?!?!?!?!?!?

What's so strange about it? Gendou apparently needed Adam's soul as well as his body, so when he got ahold of Kaworu's head, he just did a little soul body-switcheroo. With both of the needed ingredients in his palm, he fondled Rei and lost everything as a result. Adam absorbed into Rei, Rei absorbed into Lilith... What doesn't make sense about Kaworu showing up?

I'm still firm that if Instrumentality had TRULY succeeded, there would be no Shinji to decide to end it. Shinji, and even Rei -- both would disappear as personal identity is eradicated.

Which kind of makes me wonder... If, at that point in Instrumentality (since, like, all minds are connected and stuff), Shinji knew everything that Rei knew, why did Rei need to tell Shinji what was going on?

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 23:52 GMT

evolve [ANF] · Postby **evolve [ANF]** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am

Reichu wrote:What's so strange about it? Gendou apparently needed Adam's soul as well as his body, so when he got ahold of Kaworu's head, he just did a little soul body-switcheroo. With both of the needed ingredients in his palm, he fondled Rei and lost everything as a result. Adam absorbed into Rei, Rei absorbed into Lilith... What doesn't make sense about Kaworu showing up?

well before your informative post here, I had assumed that the part where Kaworu (I spelled it right this time!) shows up was "symbolic" (ie: didn't exactly happen) or something like that.

Reichu wrote:I'm still firm that if Instrumentality had TRULY succeeded, there would be no Shinji to decide to end it. Shinji, and even Rei -- both would disappear as personal identity is eradicated.

Are you suggesting that a possible outcome could have been Shinji deciding to continue with instrumentality, at which point he and Rei would phase out of their individual forms as well? that makes a little bit of sense, at least compared to anything else I've thought of, but it's probably not what you meant.

Reichu wrote:Which kind of makes me wonder... If, at that point in Instrumentality (since, like, all minds are connected and stuff), Shinji knew everything that Rei knew, why did Rei need to tell Shinji what was going on?

yeah, that's a tough call.

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 03:17 GMT

Human Instrumentality = Mass Nirvana?

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