S2 Engine expirement. Pilot?

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Rabid Monkey [ANF]
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Postby Rabid Monkey [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Reichu wrote:Out of curiosity, if the power from the cable or batteries just goes towards nerve impulses and entry plug functioning, what powers the Eva's actual body cells?

Also, saying that the Evas "don't need a brain" seems somewhat akin to arguing that humans, in NGE, don't "need" one either, considering that they seem to be able to think and do the usual human things as disembodied red dots with no bodies at all... But I digress.


Maybe I worded it wrong. I beleive that the Eva's have brains, but I dont think that they serve as a very strong will power, as all the functions carried out are by the pilot, with the exception of when they go 'berserk' or have the dummy plug in use.

The brain is always an active force in the Eva, this I beleive, although I think it is somewhat of a lax will power when we take into consideration the operation of the entry-plug and the pilot's synch with them. I think perhaps the entry plug and it's use by the pilot is the commanding force behind how the Eva's natural brain works. Using it as a median so to speak, in carrying out the orders that the pilot's digresed to it.

In other words, think of the Eva's brain as some kind of computer (strictly a manner of speaking). It's a working, thinking force, but still essentialy limited to carrying out it's operation under the jurisdiction of those that command it.

Originally posted on: 04-Nov-2004, 08:47 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Anon. wrote:Maybe I worded it wrong. I beleive that the Eva's have brains, but I dont think that they serve as a very strong will power, as all the functions carried out are by the pilot, with the exception of when they go 'berserk' or have the dummy plug in use.


Possibly not so much as "not very strong will"; rather a case of the Eva's will being deliberately and explicitly suppressed or disconnected, most of the time (viz. the function of the armour as restraints), and the pilot synch taking place at a level "below" the Eva's own volition, most of the time.

---

On the purpose of electricity in powering an Eva - we do know that Angels are of a form of matter akin to normal stuff, but clearly different in some respect - perhaps as if it originated out of some subtly different tuning of physical laws; and the fleshy bodies of the Evangelions are also derived from those of Angels.

Other observed data would tend to reinforce this similar-yet-different nature, and further suggest that they have a mainly narrativium driven metabolism, which element being in short supply in the "normal" cosmos, leads them (Angels and Evas both) to enter a quiescent state much of the time, to husband their resources. This would also explain the disinclination to express volition as a general rule.

In this way of looking at things, the external or onboard battery power is just a massive exercise in functional electrical stimulation (essentially cyborging the meat directly, through good old galvanic action).

Originally posted on: 03-Nov-2004, 22:49 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Brain must be used to operate Eva's internal organs and other various things. Brain must be there as it is seen in EOE in unit 2, but I think it serves no purpose than sending electric signals to body parts. All emotions and decisions are made by soul, than probably carried out in physical world by the brain.

BTW Eva is based on dualism, right?

Originally posted on: 04-Nov-2004, 01:37 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Possibly not so much as "not very strong will"; rather a case of the Eva's will being deliberately and explicitly suppressed or disconnected, most of the time (viz. the function of the armour as restraints), and the pilot synch taking place at a level "below" the Eva's own volition, most of the time.


I still don't understand how the 'armor' serves to "restraint" the Evas in any real way. It's just stuff that covers their bodies. The real control, I think, comes from the mutilation of the spinal cord, which, as an added bonus, also serves to put the Eva's body in the control of a pilot. Heh, has ANYone actually read that long write-up from the commentary?

On the purpose of electricity in powering an Eva - we do know that Angels are of a form of matter akin to normal stuff, but clearly different in some respect - perhaps as if it originated out of some subtly different tuning of physical laws


Well, they're compared to "solidified light"; you know better than I what real-life physics has to say on that matter, though.

and the fleshy bodies of the Evangelions are also derived from those of Angels.


Some of the Angels have "fleshy bodies", as well.

Other observed data would tend to reinforce this similar-yet-different nature, and further suggest that they have a mainly narrativium driven metabolism


"Narrativium"? How does Disc World feature into all of this?

which element being in short supply in the "normal" cosmos, leads them (Angels and Evas both) to enter a quiescent state much of the time, to husband their resources. This would also explain the disinclination to express volition as a general rule.


There is apparently some way to generate this stuff... Adam churned out all of those Angels, and Gehirn/Nerv churned out all of those Evas (counting the failures). On the matter of the necessity of Angels to need to "husband their resources", doesn't the fact that they have a Super-Solenoid run contra to this?

In this way of looking at things, the external or onboard battery power is just a massive exercise in functional electrical stimulation (essentially cyborging the meat directly, through good old galvanic action).


"Cyborging the meat directly"? Could you explain a little more? The level of comprehension on this side is lamentably low. Image

Gaizo...something or other wrote:Brain must be used to operate Eva's internal organs and other various things. Brain must be there as it is seen in EOE in unit 2,


All Evas have brains, although, yes, proof does come from EVA-02, and EVA-03 (whose brains can be seen flying out of her skull and splattering against various things when Sho punches her) and one of the harpies as well. We also see the various components of the brain show up on EVA-00's... synapse listings, or whatever the hell those data screens are.

but I think it serves no purpose than sending electric signals to body parts. All emotions and decisions are made by soul, than probably carried out in physical world by the brain.

BTW Eva is based on dualism, right?


This reminds me of a drawn-out debate I had with Wigs a while back... I think you are correct on this matter. The brain is, in a way, the soul's corporeal counterpart. Sure, the soul can do all of these things on its own, but the soul -- in mere mortals, anyway -- is entirely dependent on the brain to have a grounds in physical reality through the body it occupies... Evas seem to be able to get away with quite a bit in this regard, rendering their brains something of a biological relic not necessarily needed by a divinity (Adam may have been based on some kind of 'lower' humanoid life form, for all we know), but, even as a vestige, it still is a functioning organ.

Originally posted on: 04-Nov-2004, 02:45 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Reichu wrote:I still don't understand how the 'armor' serves to "restraint" the Evas in any real way. It's just stuff that covers their bodies. The real control, I think, comes from the mutilation of the spinal cord, which, as an added bonus, also serves to put the Eva's body in the control of a pilot. Heh, has ANYone actually read that long write-up from the commentary?


I'm not sure I do either (understand how the 'armor' serves to "restraint"); but we do have Ritsuko's apparently unguarded comment on the matter. Perhaps the material is saturated with some sort of suppressive field : that's more a magickal sort of explanation that I like (shades of cold iron) - the nearest physical phenomenon along these lines I can think of is the action of strong magnetic fields to destroy superconductivity.

The idea that they've simply been rendered quadraplegic as part of the plug-implantation is a more appealing one to the materialist in me, but I don't find it a comfortable fit with the rest of the series.

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Mr. Tines Angels are of a form of matter akin to normal stuff, but clearly different in some respect


Well, they're compared to "solidified light"; you know better than I what real-life physics has to say on that matter, though.

I don't recall the "solidified light" reference (but I am working just from the old ADV subtitles here); just the bit in ep5 where Ritsuko states (and I paraphrase) that the material of the 4th Angel has the same wave/particle duality as normal matter - which covers everything that comes under physics, so gives no real information - but isn't quite normal. However, in order for it to have the 99%+ likeness to human genetic structure, it has to have something that sustains a complex chemistry with direct analogues to the chemical elements.

The wave/particle nature rules out interesting alternatives like the cellular automata based Autoverse chemistry of Egan's "Permutation City"; leaving us with little to suggest other than subtly "mistuned" electrons, protones and neutrons.

Reichu wrote:Some of the Angels have "fleshy bodies", as well.


Most of them do, in fact - or as I had an AU Asuka (as narrative voice) put it elsewhere

Mr. Tines wrote:"This is the 15th Angel," Misato indicated to the briefing room display, to a magnified satellite photo. This one looked different to the previous ones. Those had been gross, physical things — and gross had been the word in some cases. This seemed almost ethereal, wings of light.


Their fleshy bodies - Lilith's in particular in the "taffy-pull" images - are the source of the Evas - so I'm making the assumption that anything weird about Angels can be applied to Evas unless explicitly contradicted.

Reichu wrote:"Narrativium"? How does Disc World feature into all of this?


Eva (re-)activates at moments when it is narratively appropriate. Or perhaps I should have likened it to "the Force" (spelt p-l-o-t) Image

Reichu wrote:There is apparently some way to generate this stuff... Adam churned out all of those Angels, and Gehirn/Nerv churned out all of those Evas (counting the failures).


Agreed.


Reichu wrote:On the matter of the necessity of Angels to need to "husband their resources", doesn't the fact that they have a Super-Solenoid run contra to this?


I'll say even so - the Angels were, as best we can tell, not significantly active until after the triggering events that also led up to 2I. Or maybe the S2 is something that the Angels "developed" as an adaptation to this set of physical laws, post 2I (maybe that was the 15 years wait?)

Reichu wrote:"Cyborging the meat directly"? Could you explain a little more? The level of comprehension on this side is lamentably low. Image


Rather than the "normal" Six Million Dollar Man style cyborg, (or even the recent experiments with monkeys remote controlling mechanical arms), where the cyborg limbs are plain mechanism, the concept I have is that the (real world medical technique of) functional electric stimulation is used to control the muscular action, driving the Eva's body as if it were a giant set of power armour (or the typical mecha). This is just like Count Galvani's original twitching frog's legs, only on a much larger scale, and with more refined control.

Originally posted on: 05-Nov-2004, 21:58 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Mr. Tines wrote:I'm not sure I do either (understand how the 'armor' serves to "restraint"); but we do have Ritsuko's apparently unguarded comment on the matter. Perhaps the material is saturated with some sort of suppressive field : that's more a magickal sort of explanation that I like (shades of cold iron) - the nearest physical phenomenon along these lines I can think of is the action of strong magnetic fields to destroy superconductivity.

The idea that they've simply been rendered quadraplegic as part of the plug-implantation is a more appealing one to the materialist in me, but I don't find it a comfortable fit with the rest of the series.


The 'quadraplegic' idea makes far more sense than all of the stuff Ritsuko babbles about in #19. I would be hard-pressed to discount the notion that the entry plug system is the most basic means of 'restraining' the Eva; consider that they DO go to the trouble of inserting a termination signal plug into the orifice when an Eva is not being used. On a fundamental level, as well, it serves a nifty double purpose, in that it (A) severs the Eva's brain from the rest of the body and (B) is the means by which the pilots are handed control. Considering the core is somehow integrated into the system, as well, it would not surprise me if there were measures also taken to suppress the Eva from this most integral of places.

Perhaps eventually we'll be able to think of a more realistic way in which the restraints actually RESTRAIN, though...

I don't recall the "solidified light" reference (but I am working just from the old ADV subtitles here)


I'll take a look at the original dialogue later.

Eva (re-)activates at moments when it is narratively appropriate. Or perhaps I should have likened it to "the Force" (spelt p-l-o-t) Image


Aha, now I follow. Image

I'll say even so - the Angels were, as best we can tell, not significantly active until after the triggering events that also led up to 2I. Or maybe the S2 is something that the Angels "developed" as an adaptation to this set of physical laws, post 2I (maybe that was the 15 years wait?)


The S2 is equivalent to the Fruit of Life and is something that all Angels are supposed to have, on a fundamental level. I don't think anyone's EVER solved the dilemma of why the Angels are all in dormant, embryonic states until fifteen years after 2I, at which point they decide to all wake up, one at a time, in sequential order... Can we say "plot contrivance"? Image

Rather than the "normal" Six Million Dollar Man style cyborg, (or even the recent experiments with monkeys remote controlling mechanical arms), where the cyborg limbs are plain mechanism, the concept I have is that the (real world medical technique of) functional electric stimulation is used to control the muscular action, driving the Eva's body as if it were a giant set of power armour (or the typical mecha). This is just like Count Galvani's original twitching frog's legs, only on a much larger scale, and with more refined control.


I'd considered the same idea, myself. However, there is the whole pesky matter of whether or not the Evas' cells actually require any sort of nutrition to maintain themselves... I.e., if the electricity stimulates the muscles to move, what is actually supporting the muscle cells? If you use an electric current to make my arm twitch, that twitch, while instigated by the electricity, is being powered by ATP (or whatever) in my cells. Hopefully my thought process is making some sense here... The Evas' bodies are fully equipped to ingest and process food*, but does their upkeep by Nerv actually involve supplying their bodies with raw materials, to be expended during deployment?

If the electricity is merely a stimulant and doesn't provide the cells themselves with energy, how does that explain how a 'berserk' Eva can utilize the power from the cord/battery or why, when that artificially-supplied power is gone, she basically 'goes dead'. Also, considering the fact that it is referred to as "power" and not "electrical stimulant" seems to negate this idea, as well.

*which seems like a rather odd feature to have on something essentially copied from a super-entity that doesn't rely on outside sustenance -- but such is the downfall of creating gods in our own lowly, organic, animal-bodied image Image

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 01:15 GMT

Knives [ANF]
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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Reichu wrote:I'd considered the same idea, myself. However, there is the whole pesky matter of whether or not the Evas' cells actually require any sort of nutrition to maintain themselves... I.e., if the electricity stimulates the muscles to move, what is actually supporting the muscle cells? If you use an electric current to make my arm twitch, that twitch, while instigated by the electricity, is being powered by ATP (or whatever) in my cells. Hopefully my thought process is making some sense here... The Evas' bodies are fully equipped to ingest and process food*, but does their upkeep by Nerv actually involve supplying their bodies with raw materials, to be expended during deployment?

If the electricity is merely a stimulant and doesn't provide the cells themselves with energy, how does that explain how a 'berserk' Eva can utilize the power from the cord/battery or why, when that artificially-supplied power is gone, she basically 'goes dead'. Also, considering the fact that it is referred to as "power" and not "electrical stimulant" seems to negate this idea, as well.

*which seems like a rather odd feature to have on something essentially copied from a super-entity that doesn't rely on outside sustenance -- but such is the downfall of creating gods in our own lowly, organic, animal-bodied image Image

*cough*Ahem*cough*
I believe I've already put forth a theory that answers this Image , but for whatever reason, people consistently seem to be rejecting it Image .

>EDIT
This theory I speak of begins on page two of this thread actually Image .
The most convincing (that is to say, most well defended) position on this theory is located on page four though.
>End EDIT

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 06:00 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Sorry to be a stubborn broad, but I'm trying to find a way around inventing mystical organs if I can help it. Image This may be one of those cases where, in retrospect, I think, "By gum, the bastard was probably right!" (I've done that to AchtungAffen a number of times after vehemently disagreeing with him) -- but I can't guarantee anything.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 06:10 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:39 am

Reichu wrote:Sorry to be a stubborn broad, but I'm trying to find a way around inventing mystical organs if I can help it. Image This may be one of those cases where, in retrospect, I think, "By gum, the bastard was probably right!" (I've done that to AchtungAffen a number of times after vehemently disagreeing with him) -- but I can't guarantee anything.

Hee hee Image S'alright.

But who's inventing? We know there's S^2 (Super-Solenoid) organs ... who's to say there aren't S^1 (Solenoid — in other words, non-Super [that is to say, non-self-sustaining]) organs (which again, I've supported roughly via means of induction) Image ?

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 06:17 GMT


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