Soluzar wrote:That said, I think that in this instance, at least, you are right that she is looking for someone to protect her - although a better word would be "support" - all of the time. If you think it's inconsistent with her character, that's only because you are buying into the fictitious character that she projects. Sohryu Asuka Langely is her most succesfull creation, so to speak.

Indeed. I am quite at a loss when it somes to Asuka, of all the characters. For example, I did not realise that Asuka had eyes for Shinji until the DC scenes were spelled out by Shin-seiki in the Shinji and Asuka thread. I have spoken with someone who, on their first run through the series, thought it was obvious that Asuka liked Shinji. For the longest time, I assummed Asuka had nothing but general disdain for Shinji, gathering this from her general tone and demeanour about him.

Interestingly, one of the reasons this person gave for their conclusion was that "Asuka was annoyed by him". In other words, her annoyance at him signified her interest in him, and/or frustration at him for not taking an interest in her. One of the reasons I would have given for her not being interested was "Asuka was annoyed by him". In other words I took her annoyance to mean that Asuka was simply contemptous of Shinji.
So, interestingly, the same behaviour led to two different conclusions.

So now, I find myself intellectually able to point out each significant detail in the series proving that Asuka has an interest in Shinji, but intuitively I find myself at quite a loss to explain her actions. I understand the how of Asuka, but not the why of Asuka. Though, given the general obfuscatedness of her character, I might not perhaps be alone in my ignorence.

Originally posted on: 15-Jun-2005, 15:33 GMT

OMF wrote:So now, I find myself intellectually able to point out each significant detail in the series proving that Asuka has an interest in Shinji, but intuitively I find myself at quite a loss to explain her actions. I understand the how of Asuka, but not the why of Asuka. Though, given the general obfuscatedness of her character, I might not perhaps be alone in my ignorence.

OMF, I assume you're a very logical thinker (based solely on your screen name ). People that are driven heavily by emotion will never act logically so you have to read into a character differently. However as Soluzar pointed out, you have to judge some characters by their tone which is not easy when things get lost in the translation.

When I saw Asuka and Shinji interacting, I felt right away there was something between them. The way they interacted with each other in Episode 9 was what definitely convinced me. Even the teasing the two received ("...look the newlyweds are arguiing again...") are subtle hints about a possible relationship between Asuka and Shinji.

Originally posted on: 15-Jun-2005, 17:23 GMT

OMF wrote:For example, I did not realise that Asuka had eyes for Shinji until the DC scenes were spelled out by Shin-seiki in the Shinji and Asuka thread.

I would characterise what the DC scenes did as going from the original series indicating how she was lonely and desperate; to showing how lonely and desperate she was - i.e. from "in what manner" to "to what degree", the latter of which I had underestimated. With the extra dimension clarified, her awful double-bind situation and her conflictedness are obvious to see.

BLACKANGEL32076 wrote:Now I lived in a college dorm 8 months a year for 5 years and I can tell you with experience that Misa-chan lives her life, dispite her responcibilities, like a college girl who never left the dorms.

Aside from work trading free time for money (and the march of technology) I can see many of my college contemporaries living fairly student-like lifestyles to this day. Admittedly that never involved getting hammered on a frequent basis, even back in the day...

OMF wrote:Asuka's lines are resonant with her "You won't save me!" lines to Shinji in episode #22', but from the tone of them it comes across that Asuka has been looking for someone to protect her all the time, which really doesn't seem to fit her character.

She had to (or felt she had to) take on adult responsibility early, because no-one else would look after her. I can see her being weary to the core of the burden that she took up far too soon, just as Misato is weary of being seen to be respectable. I tend to characterise 14-year-old Asuka as being 24 going on 4; and I think that' s 4-year-old Asuka speaking.

Originally posted on: 15-Jun-2005, 18:33 GMT

Shinji has the Red Earth
Rei has the moon
Asuka has the sea at sunset (or possibly the sun)
Misato has the sky during second impact.
Chibi-Misato also has the Red Earth

Originally posted on: 15-Jun-2005, 18:50 GMT

OMF wrote:Indeed. I am quite at a loss when it somes to Asuka, of all the characters. For example, I did not realise that Asuka had eyes for Shinji until the DC scenes were spelled out by Shin-seiki in the Shinji and Asuka thread. I have spoken with someone who, on their first run through the series, thought it was obvious that Asuka liked Shinji. For the longest time, I assummed Asuka had nothing but general disdain for Shinji, gathering this from her general tone and demeanour about him.

It took me until my third full viewing before I started to notice the more subtle cues. It's a mystery to me how anyone could grasp the nature of their relationship after only a single viewing.

Interestingly, one of the reasons this person gave for their conclusion was that "Asuka was annoyed by him". In other words, her annoyance at him signified her interest in him, and/or frustration at him for not taking an interest in her. One of the reasons I would have given for her not being interested was "Asuka was annoyed by him". In other words I took her annoyance to mean that Asuka was simply contemptous of Shinji.
So, interestingly, the same behaviour led to two different conclusions.

OMF, I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you don't come from the US or the UK. I used to think that you were from the UK, but now I'm starting to wonder if you come from a different country altogether. The reason for that is that in those two nations it's considered utterly stereotypical that two people who start out by making each other angry and fighting a lot end up in the sack. It's a cliche. If you come from a totally different culture, that would explain why you wouldn't recognise that trope.

So now, I find myself intellectually able to point out each significant detail in the series proving that Asuka has an interest in Shinji, but intuitively I find myself at quite a loss to explain her actions. I understand the how of Asuka, but not the why of Asuka. Though, given the general obfuscatedness of her character, I might not perhaps be alone in my ignorence.

Most certainly you are not. I do wonder though (and I mean no offence by it) if part of your confusion arises from cultural diffences.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 08:05 GMT

Soluzar wrote:The reason for that is that in those two nations it's considered utterly stereotypical that two people who start out by making each other angry and fighting a lot end up in the sack. It's a cliche. If you come from a totally different culture, that would explain why you wouldn't recognise that trope.

Um, this is Japanese material we're discussing; and if there's a stereotype in anime, my reading on the subject indicates that it's of the brash newcomer being merely an obstacle in the path of the original true love for the quieter girl.

I suspect that whether one has seen this pattern enough to be able to class it as a stereotype depends on sub-cultural things : I'm UKan (save for a couple of years spent in Oz as an anklebiter), but don't recognise it as one.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 08:27 GMT

Mr. Tines wrote:Um, this is Japanese material we're discussing; and if there's a stereotype in anime, my reading on the subject indicates that it's of the brash newcomer being merely an obstacle in the path of the original true love for the quieter girl.

I'm really talking about the ability to recognise it, rather than its inclusion in the anime, which I regard as a proven fact.

In as much as I understand the stereotype that you are discussing here, I would say that you are right to refer to it as a stereotype. It's present in my all-time favourite romance anime, Kimagure Orange Road, and a lot of others that I have seen, but Shinji and Rei were just not a credible pairing as far as I was concerned. Rei and anyone isn't a credible pairing to me. I enjoyed seeing their relationship go as far as it did, but I think it was clearly signposted that their relationship was not to go down that path.

I suspect that whether one has seen this pattern enough to be able to class it as a stereotype depends on sub-cultural things : I'm UKan (save for a couple of years spent in Oz as an anklebiter), but don't recognise it as one.

Seriously? Hmm. I can't even count the number of movies or TV shows I've seen where fighting = foreplay.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 08:39 GMT

Soluzar wrote:Seriously? Hmm. I can't even count the number of movies or TV shows I've seen where fighting = foreplay.

I guess I don't watch those sorts of movies (and I gave up TV while Maggie was still on the throne).

Text is my major input, and that starts from a main strand of boy's adventure which over the years shaded into hard-SF. That cuts down on the exposure to the "slushy stuff". Side trips into PWP on the one hand or fated true love as per Andre Norton fantasy, on the other have clearly been no help either.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 08:51 GMT

I understand that there is a cliche, I just don't understand the cliche very well. TV's always a bit fantastical and the only couples I've observed that fight with each other all the time are those that will shortly be broken up.

Even under this cliche, it is still quite difficult to explain some of Asuka's actions(Walls of Jerico). The characters in Evangelion are much more three dimensional than the usual fare on TV, so cliches will only get us so far.

Without the benefit of the DC scenes in #22', it is quite difficult to decide whether Asuka is actually flirting with Shinji, or whether she is simply abasing him. In retrospect, while one can say that Shinji is dense, one could also argue that in her own extroverted way, Asuka is an even bigger donkan than he is.

Originally posted on: 15-Jun-2005, 21:01 GMT

Hi I'm new. Excellent analysis man.

Without the benefit of the DC scenes in #22', it is quite difficult to decide whether Asuka is actually flirting with Shinji, or whether she is simply abasing him.

I think it's a bit of both. We know both Asuka and Shinji suffer from being abandoned and being lonely. Unlike Rei who is also lonely but does nothing about it (she did not have the emotion of sadness until Armisael (16th angel) gave it to her so she never found loneliness to be sad), Asuka and Shinji both try to get attention in their own way. Shinji tries to get attention by purposely distancing himself from others and acting enigmatic so as to induce an interest/curiosity/pity in others. For example, remember this scene...
(Shinji looks at Gendou's burnt hands)
Misato: what's the matter?
Shinji: ... betsuni...
Misato: when you say "betsuni" with such a face, you look more like you're trying to say "think about me, please worry about me."
I suspect that many times when Shinji ran away from NERV, he did it partly because he wanted Misato to go look for him and give him attention.

Asuka, on the other hand, gets attention by pertty much the opposite way.
"DAKARA WATASHI WA MITTE!!!" We would often hear her cry this out loud. When she wants attention, she gets right to the point. Look at me, I'm so sexy and good at piloting, give me attention. So whenever she's bullying Shinji, she's either forcing him to pay attention to her (forcible flirting), or get mad at him if he doesn't.

Originally posted on: 18-Jun-2005, 18:11 GMT

btw what's a morning woody?

Digitalex wrote:On a slightly different note, I am surprised it took you that long to figure out the morning woody.

Originally posted on: 18-Jun-2005, 18:14 GMT

ShyanHaiJin wrote:Shinji tries to get attention by purposely distancing himself from others and acting enigmatic so as to induce an interest/curiosity/pity in others. For example, remember this scene...
(Shinji looks at Gendou's burnt hands)
Misato: what's the matter?
Shinji: ... betsuni...
Misato: when you say "betsuni" with such a face, you look more like you're trying to say "think about me, please worry about me."

That's an interesting point. Shinji effectively "baits" others with curiosty. His unwillingness to become too engaged with people may also be a part of this, as if someone else asks the first question, he has not shown any cards and is more in control of the situation. Maybe its also a test of some kind, to check if people really are interested in him?

It's also interesting how put out Shinji is by her discovery of his technique. I don't think he tries that paticular routine with her again, much to Misato's relief. I think he tries it with other though, possibly Asuka and Kaji.

ShyanHaiJin wrote:I suspect that many times when Shinji ran away from NERV, he did it partly because he wanted Misato to go look for him and give him attention.

Certainly, his flight in episode #04 was in part a cry for attention, just a different form of attention than he had thus far been getting.

I also agree with your points on Asuka and her attention seeking methods. (And also on her bullying of Shinji :E) It's interesting what polar opposites the two are at times, but will they attract?!

ShyanHaiJin wrote:btw what's a morning woody?

Google has your answers.

Originally posted on: 18-Jun-2005, 19:59 GMT

Soluzar wrote:Seriously? Hmm. I can't even count the number of movies or TV shows I've seen where fighting = foreplay.

Having wracked my brains, and scanned the bookshelves at home, realisation suddenly dawned! You're saying that if male and female lead squabble, then whichever fiction it is has to be a Much Ado...* knock-off - by contrast with hope that the intentional pattern for EoE (at least, within NGE) is not The Shrew, with Asuka broken at the end.

This actually increases my skepticism, as the Shinji/Asuka interactions are pretty much the time reverse of Beatrice and Benedick.

The only other instance I found of something at all similar (Kim and Clarissa in Galactic Patrol) is an even worse fit to the matter at hand.

* Yes, I did see the Branagh movie, so I was not 100% accurate earlier.

Originally posted on: 19-Jun-2005, 08:59 GMT