Sharp-kun wrote:The wings on the EVA Series aren't a huge problem, as Adam had Wings.

The wings on the harpies also are entirely mechanical (and impossibly retractable), whereas Adam's were of the metaphysical energy variety displayed by Yui-sama in EoE.

A) Skin colour I've covered.

The article said that fur coloration is dependent more on the factors in the womb than on genetics, but fur and skin are two entirely different things. Skin color IS something that genetics determine (for example, cross a Caucasian with an African and you get someone with a skin value somewhere in the middle). Also, I doubt the differences between "cc" and her donor are nearly as profound as the difference between something with ghostly white skin that vaguely slows and something with considerably darker skin that conforms more to human standards.

B) Eyes we can't really comment on. We never see Lilith's real eyes, only those of Lilith-Rei

This is true, but, being as GNR's eyes originally are these giant black pits that don't conform to Rei's form, I think it's possible that these may represent the original state of Lilith's eyes. (Definitely would explain why GEHIRN would want to cover Lilith's face, no?)

C) As above. We never see Lilith's face.

You can see enough that her eyes HAVE to positioned on the front of the face in a human-like way if she is to have eyes at all. Lilith clearly doesn't have her eyes located further on the sides of her head like most Evas do.

D) Possible as with skin colour

I don't find that too convincing. Lilith has a VERY unusual body composition -- she evidently has a skeleton and muscles and all, but ultimately those don't matter when you have the consistency of marshmallows (look at her fulling her hands off the cross). EVA-01, on the other hand, is NOT marshmallowy -- she is flesh, blood, and bone, able to regenerate spontaneously, but a far cry from Lilith's weirdness.

E) I disagree. The moment she regains her soul, she seems to become rather defined, although in the Lilith-Rei form

Which does not represent her original state, so it doesn't count.

F) Blood transfusion?

Guess I got you on that one. :evil:

H) That was only when she was bending over. We never see EVA-01 in a similar way to compare them.

I doubt most people's spines stick out THAT much, even WHEN they are bending over. They look like dorsal spines to me, and they'd be sticking out like that whether she was bending over or not. As limited and inconsistent as they are, official illustrations of naked Evas do not depict similar dorsal protrusions.

I) Removed on Unit 1 to fit in the armour? The external part of your ear isn't necessary, less so on a fighting machine with a pilot.

Erm... I really hope you don't actually believe this. It's considerably more parsimonious just to accept that Evas don't have external ears, whereas Lilith does.

My comparison chart cannot be dismissed so easily! I know the morphology of these superbeings like the back of my hand.

No comments on my radical theory (the long thing in italics) so far? Gee, I'm disappointed... :dodgy:

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2003, 22:49 GMT

Sharp-kun wrote:I've always assumed that Adam, when he was reduced to an Embryo, grew a new S2.

Given time, that embryo would have grown into a full fleged Adam.

How would he grow a new S2? What would power the growth? (Unless Adam being in Gendo's hand had something to do with it)

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2003, 00:21 GMT

Sorry I haven't actually been following this thread proplerly. I've got another week left of exams and then I'm finally finished. I just wanted to comment on one thing.

Reichu wrote:I actually believe the REAL reason EVA-01 looks nothing like Lilith is because Anno pulled this "clone" stuff out of his arse when he realized he had created most of the mythos but still hadn't come up with a good reason for EVA-01 to be "special".

When do you think he came up with the idea then? Becuase legless Lilith was established fairly early on in the series and the "Eva-01 clone of Lilith" idea seems to explain her lack of legs extremely well.

The redone episode 23 (showing Lilith and Eva-01 connected) contained within Genesis 0:12 was released after the movies, however I think Eva-01's origins (based upon Lilith's missing legs) were established long before this.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2003, 00:54 GMT

MDWigs wrote:When do you think he came up with the idea then? Becuase legless Lilith was established fairly early on in the series and the "Eva-01 clone of Lilith" idea seems to explain her lack of legs extremely well.

Oh, I really don't know; it's just another of my harebrained ideas... Though if Anno had planned from the beginning that EVA-01 would be a "clone" of Lilith, don't you think he would've bothered making them look a little more, well, RELATED?

Though as if so much of this EVA-01/Lilith business wasn't already an incoherent mess far as my brain is concerned, the missing legs deal still perplexes me. How does one just turn the lower limbs of one entity into the complete body of another? At least the theory I proposed earlier (and no one has commented on thusfar) makes some sense in this regard -- I suggest that EVA-01 was not somehow "molded" from Lilith's legs, but that the legs slowly degenerated to provide for, "nurture", the growing Eva attached to her body.

BTW, here's an analogy I thought of earlier today: If the clone being so radically different from the donor has some sort of basis in actual science -- which I don't think it does -- that's like saying a clone of Cate Blanchett can end up looking like an Uruk-hai. No more difference between the two of them than that observable between EVA-01 and Lilith, after all.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2003, 07:46 GMT

Reichu wrote:BTW, here's an analogy I thought of earlier today: If the clone being so radically different from the donor has some sort of basis in actual science -- which I don't think it does -- that's like saying a clone of Cate Blanchett can end up looking like an Uruk-hai. No more difference between the two of them than that seen between EVA-01 and Lilith, after all.

There's one major problem that dosn't fit with everything here. We don't ever have a standard of comparisson that definativly tells us what Lilith looks like. It is highly likely that Lilith on the cross is not a true representation of what she looks like. Swelling, distention, and discoloration are common occurances during injury. Given that someone has chopped off her legs and made her permanently bleed, I would say injury has been apparent. Ever see some sprain a knee or ankle and it swells to several times it's normal size? Also, after Lilith takes in the S2 engine and begins to regenerate, that appearance can not be used as a standard either, as Lilith is regenerating with the combined DNA of Lilith and Yui Ikari. That is of course unless Yui Ikari happened to be a genetic match with Lilith. So we don't really know what Lilith looked like.

Back to the cloning thing.

By definition cloning must be asexual and from a single source of inert genetic material. If it is produced sexually or from multiple sources of genetic material, it is not a clone but an amalgamation. If not from inert genetic material, then it is an offspring, not a clone.

Secondly and more importantly, there seems to be some confusion as to the nature of the term "clone"

Main Entry: 1clone
Pronunciation: 'klOn
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek klOn twig, slip; akin to Greek klan to break -- more at CLAST
Date: 1903
1 a : the aggregate of the asexually produced progeny of an individual; also : a group of replicas of all or part of a macromolecule (as DNA or an antibody) b : an individual grown from a single somatic cell of its parent and genetically identical to it

The important part to realize here is that the term "clone" refers not to the end product, rather to the process invloved in producing the end product. By employing the process of cloning, the product is by default a clone. If further genetic manipulation is performed, it does not negate the speciman already being a clone. Being a clone isn't like being a plumber, where you might be a trucker the next day. Once a clone always a clone.

So, if you really wanted to, you could make a clone of Kate Blanchet, then genetically modify it to be a Uruk-Hai. It would still be a clone of Kate Blanchet..... just an ugly one. However, if you were to clone the clone... the new clone would not be a clone of Kate Blanchet.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2003, 20:25 GMT

UberDirector wrote:There's one major problem that dosn't fit with everything here. We don't ever have a standard of comparisson that definativly tells us what Lilith looks like. It is highly likely that Lilith on the cross is not a true representation of what she looks like.

This is a definite problem, of course. (I've tortured myself endlessly trying to come up with a design for Lilith's original appearance. Much easier said than done.) What about after she regenerates her lower body (when the Lance is removed)? Do you think she's any closer to her original appearance then?

By definition cloning must be asexual and from a single source of inert genetic material. If it is produced sexually or from multiple sources of genetic material, it is not a clone but an amalgamation. If not from inert genetic material, then it is an offspring, not a clone.

Well, that makes things a little clearer... Being an ignoramus and all, however, I'm having trouble understanding the exact differences. What is "inert" genetic material and what isn't? What would be an example of an amalgamation? Where would GMOs fit in?

Also, do you have any idea how the sort of genetic modification required to produce the Evas would be attained? I was always rather interested in how that might work, though I haven't gotten around to researching it yet.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2003, 20:41 GMT

Inert genetic material is genetic material that will not reproduce without outside stimulus. An example would be a jar of human egg cells. They aren't going to be doing much of anything until someone comes along and plays with them. A plant asexually reproducing itself is an example of non-inert genetic material, as it can freely reproduce itself. Amalgimations are the majority of reproduction. Examples are you and I. It is when DNA from multiple sources combines to make a new genetic code, that is similar too but unique from its contributors.

As to how you would genetically modify an EVA... I suppose you would use something similar to a recombinant DNA string. Simply put, you introduce a string of DNA into a subject that re-writes the DNA it encounters so that eventually all the DNA of the host matches it. Experiments are being conducted with recombinant DNA to combat cancer... I'm sure twisted Gendo could come up with other uses.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2003, 20:52 GMT

Bumping for no other purpose other than to preserve what is, IMO, an interesting piece of forum history. Many of the ideas here have been struck down by NGE2, but an interesting read nonetheless. This is actually where I posted my "birth of EVA-01" theory for the first time, but, oddly, it was COMPLETELY glossed over here. Evidence that persistence can pay off, I suppose.

Originally posted on: 08-Nov-2004, 01:46 GMT

Reichu wrote:Bumping for no other purpose other than to preserve what is, IMO, an interesting piece of forum history. Many of the ideas here have been struck down by NGE2, but an interesting read nonetheless. This is actually where I posted my "birth of EVA-01" theory for the first time, but, oddly, it was COMPLETELY glossed over here. Evidence that persistence can pay off, I suppose.

... Everytime I read these old threads of yours, I can't help but think ... "Where in the world did you guys get these crazy ideas ?"
( )

Originally posted on: 08-Nov-2004, 20:14 GMT

Knives wrote:... Everytime I read these old threads of yours, I can't help but think ... "Where in the world did you guys get these crazy ideas ?"
( )

I bet sometimes when they read the new new threads that you and I post in, the old-timers get the same thought!

Originally posted on: 08-Nov-2004, 16:22 GMT

Knives wrote:... Everytime I read these old threads of yours, I can't help but think ... "Where in the world did you guys get these crazy ideas ?"
( )

What, you mean stuff like Adam and Lilith once being one entity and the Spear being Adam's S^2? It is with great pride and snobbery that I confess... I never really bought into either one.

Originally posted on: 08-Nov-2004, 21:36 GMT