OMF wrote:Unit-01 is natus de(born of) both Adam and Lilith. The exact pedantics of this can only be guessed at, but I would hazard a guess that its birth was from Lilith and its genesis was either of Adam, or of both adam and Lilith. Most likely some fancy IVF/Gene manipulation techiques here.

Interesting speculation - Is EVA-01 the same substance as Adam, or merely similar?

Now, where have I heard that distinction before? Oh, yes, there...

I am starting to wonder whether we are starting to re-enact the Arian schism here -

A Theological Source wrote:homoousion[/b] A Greek term, literally
meaning “of the same substance,” which
came to be used extensively during the
fourth century to designate the mainline
Christological belief that Jesus Christ
was “of the same substance of God.”
The term was polemical, being directed
against the Arian view that Christ was
“of similar substance (homoiousios)” to
God. See also “consubstantial.”

- on roughly the same amount of hard evidence. (This is the the source of phrases like "not one iota of difference", BTW.)

Originally posted on: 22-May-2005, 11:56 GMT

AchtungAffen wrote:I'm talking about discovery Adam:
http://pics.reiliberationparade.com...extend/Adam.jpg

It must be a subjective thing. I still see Adam as looking completely distinct from any version of Lileth, who either looked like marshmallow girl, or GNR.

I wouldn't put much of a bet on Lilith having also the fruit of life. As I don't have the exact argumentation for that case, I can't say much. But there's a possibility that the MP's might have something on Adam's soul. Kaworu's DP leads me to that. But there are some holes there also.

I was waiting for that one to come up. I have to say, I'm resistant to this notion. Why, I'm not sure - its an instinctual dislike.

Originally posted on: 22-May-2005, 14:21 GMT

Holy crap... I neglect the forum for a couple of days, and look at what a giant mess this thread becomes. Here, let me straighten some things out...

1) How could you people forget about #24', where Keel says that Adam's soul exists *solely* in Kaworu? The embryo IS SOULLESS. However, we do know that Kaworu ends up in GNR, supporting the assertion that Adam's soul was recovered from Kaworu's head. :imagines Gendo and Fuyutsuki going out into the underground LCL lake in a row boat with a fishing net: REMEMBER, BISCUIT: In the NGE universe, unless the body is entirely destroyed upon death, it RETAINS THE SOUL. (Watch EoE again if you fail to grasp why this is. ) Rei 2's body had to be recovered to retrieve Lilith's soul. Kaworu's head had to be recovered to retrieve Adam's soul. BTW, Dr. Nick, I agree with you about the "forbidden merging" requiring both parts of both ingredients; Lilith as a host mother to one of Adam's bastard daughters wouldn't count.

2) AA, I still require to know why one line that can be interpreted multiple ways negates EVA-01's oft-stated connection to Adam. The Evas are derived from Adam; that's what makes them Evas. This is a fact that cannot be altered. The idea that Lilith was simply used as a host (regardless of whether you prescribe to my "perversion of natural birth" theory or not) to produce the 'Test Type' is hardly a stretch, as it reconciles all available data. If you don't like it -- well, I can only pray that it will grow on you.

3) Regarding Adam samples... Why does everyone assume that all samples must come from the embryo? In 2000 and earlier, they had an entire 50m+ of Adam to extract tissue samples from, which could have been shipped out of Antarctica before 2I and preserved for future use.

4) The embryo sample IS Adam. Misato even says in #26' that ADAM WAS REDUCED TO AN EMBRYO "to reduce further damage" (whatever that means). How the embryo is labeled makes little difference. Does it really matter if the bona fide Adam is called "Sample 01"? Tissue samples and cultured crap could then be labeled 02 and up.

5) Good catch, Niko. EVA-01 was going to be Gendo's "Ark" (Ohhhhh baby) in his version of HIP; she was certainly one of the pieces.

6) Probably, Bisu-chan, one of the "worms" Dr. Nick was referring to re: "soul multiplicity" (or whatever) is how Yui needed (as far as she was concerned) to be in EVA-01 and wouldn't come out. If she could be in two places at once, or just "copy/imprint/whatever" herself, that might have saved Gendo and Shinji from a bit of unnecessary misery.

7) No Adam souls in the harpies! Adam's soul resided ONLY IN KAWORU, AchtungAffen. We'll just have to accept that dummy plugs/systems make no sense, never will, random chicks are in the harpies (thus explaining why they killed themselves, to join the great soul orgy), and Kaworu's thought patterns can synch with them anyway.

I guess that's a start.

Originally posted on: 24-May-2005, 04:58 GMT

Reichu wrote:Holy crap... I neglect the forum for a couple of days, and look at what a giant mess this thread becomes. Here, let me straighten some things out...

Well, it was fun while it lasted. Boys, hide the animal porn - the w0man is back!

...Ahen, what I mean to say is that regarding that Keel's line, my excuse is that I haven't seen ep. 24' in over a year (BTW, what the hell is taking so long with my Platinum 07?!? Rage! )

3) Regarding Adam samples... Why does everyone assume that all samples must come from the embryo? In 2000 and earlier, they had an entire 50m+ of Adam to extract tissue samples from, which could have been shipped out of Antarctica before 2I and preserved for future use.

Quite possible; after all, Seele's scenario guidelines are laid out in the Dead Sea Scrolls (though how much in detail, that we do not know), so they might have done something like that in advance. But since we have absolutely no way of knowing that, I find debating this topic to be rather fruitless.

7) No Adam souls in the harpies! Adam's soul resided ONLY IN KAWORU, AchtungAffen. We'll just have to accept that dummy plugs/systems make no sense, never will, random chicks are in the harpies (thus explaining why they killed themselves, to join the great soul orgy), and Kaworu's thought patterns can synch with them anyway.

Does that rule out the possibility of imperfect copies of Adam's soul? Seele might not consider such entities as souls. Not that I really support this idea, but because I haven't made up my mind regarding the harpies I want to check out all possible alternatives.

Originally posted on: 24-May-2005, 10:13 GMT

Dr. Nick wrote:Does that rule out the possibility of imperfect copies of Adam's soul? Seele might not consider such entities as souls. Not that I really support this idea, but because I haven't made up my mind regarding the harpies I want to check out all possible alternatives.

Well, if their souls are not from Lilim, there is no real way to explain the fact that they all kill themselves when GNR is sucking every soul on the planet into the Black Moon.

Originally posted on: 24-May-2005, 17:40 GMT

But GNR was still controlling the harpies more so, maybe she made them kill themselves(if the harpies don't have Lilim souls, then they are a Kaworu plug, a body, and a merged form of Rei. Would any of these enjoy(their expressions. ) having to join with GNR?)
This may kill my doujin, BTW......but I simply want to find the truth.

Originally posted on: 24-May-2005, 17:48 GMT

Well, GNR could easily have made them all commit suicide simply so that no human soul would be left unsucked.

Originally posted on: 24-May-2005, 17:57 GMT

@Soluzar

It must be a subjective thing. I still see Adam as looking completely distinct from any version of Lileth, who either looked like marshmallow girl, or GNR.

Don't know, but it looks similar to me, and not only me. I've been in discussions where people claimed it was Lilith and not Adam.

@Reichu

How could you people forget about #24'

Yep, I forgot. It makes it clear that there was no soul in Adam embryos, and wonder if there ever was. So the forbidden union wasn't a soul thing after all.

AA, I still require to know why one line that can be interpreted multiple ways negates EVA-01's oft-stated connection to Adam. The Evas are derived from Adam; that's what makes them Evas. This is a fact that cannot be altered. The idea that Lilith was simply used as a host (regardless of whether you prescribe to my "perversion of natural birth" theory or not) to produce the 'Test Type' is hardly a stretch, as it reconciles all available data. If you don't like it -- well, I can only pray that it will grow on you.

What I was saying is that there's no particular mention of a specific Eva-01 - Adam relation, while there are for Eva-02 and Adam, and Eva-01 and Lilith. And there's another thing important here: There are no mentions of Lilith whatsoever until #24. All mentions of Eva origins until then escaped the issue of Lilith as a possibility.

No Adam souls in the harpies! Adam's soul resided ONLY IN KAWORU, AchtungAffen. We'll just have to accept that dummy plugs/systems make no sense, never will, random chicks are in the harpies (thus explaining why they killed themselves, to join the great soul orgy), and Kaworu's thought patterns can synch with them anyway.

Well yes, the DP synch capacities exceed some rational, as even Gendou asked for a Rei DP to be put in Eva-02 (which never made much sense to me). Still, and even it might be fantasy or stretching things too far, by #25' there is no more Kaworu. Still, the Ryousanki having Adam soul isn't something in which I would put a high bet.

Originally posted on: 26-May-2005, 19:44 GMT

AchtungAffen wrote:Don't know, but it looks similar to me, and not only me. I've been in discussions where people claimed it was Lilith and not Adam.

Yeah, and the EVA-01 we see connected to Lilith doesn't look quite like the long, scrawny EVA-01 we are used to. Are you expecting consistency?

Yep, I forgot. It makes it clear that there was no soul in Adam embryos, and wonder if there ever was. So the forbidden union wasn't a soul thing after all.

Yes it was. Adam's soul was salvaged into the embryo, which is why it ended up inside GNR.

What I was saying is that there's no particular mention of a specific Eva-01 - Adam relation

Yes, I'm sure they have the title "ADAM" appear right after EVA-01's face in the OP for shits and giggles. It is flat-out stated that Evas come from Adam. EVA-01 is an Eva. Ergo, she comes from Adam. If Keel said, "Lilith's sole clone, the sole Eva to not come from Adam", maybe we'd be getting somewhere, but he didn't. Keel's line does not preclude the connection to Adam that was being built up all along. The only function served in the story of being an offspring of Lilith is so that she can serve as Lilith's substitute in Seele's Plan B.

while there are for Eva-02 and Adam, and Eva-01 and Lilith. And there's another thing important here: There are no mentions of Lilith whatsoever until #24. All mentions of Eva origins until then escaped the issue of Lilith as a possibility.

But her connection to Adam wasn't denied. In fact, it was only buttressed by having her generate a cross-shaped explosion (typical of -- guess who? -- the Angels) and sprout four wings of light eerily similar to Adam's. Oh yeah, and let's not forget that EVA-01 has ordinary blood (not LCL), a core, and the symbol of the Angels right on her forehead.

The idea that Sho has no connection to Adam or her Eva sisters is treading on very, very thin ice.

Well yes, the DP synch capacities exceed some rational, as even Gendou asked for a Rei DP to be put in Eva-02 (which never made much sense to me).

It makes perfect sense if the dummy system escapes the limitations imposed by ordinary pilots, which is essentially what was being suggested by Gendo (the guy who knows everything) asking for it to be installed in Nigouki.

Originally posted on: 27-May-2005, 08:19 GMT

Well, you conviced me, Reichu(even more so then before)
Especially: "The only function served in the story of being an offspring of Lilith is so that she can serve as Lilith's substitute in Seele's Plan B."
People need to remember to keep in mind that plots can develop holes unless you as the creator can make it work all the way through, even if you must add seeminly strange ablities, qualites, or processes to characters and events in order to achieve this. I've sure as hell done this in my story(how else could I draw cool monsters with no practically? Just make up a reason that will fit in the story, and everyone wins.

Originally posted on: 28-May-2005, 01:42 GMT