Do you find that annoying? (Pronunciation of names in dubs)

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:02 pm

The stupid part is, Japanese pronunciation is ridiculously straightforward once you know the basic rules. It's a phonetic language, unlike English, where there is not necessarily any correlation with how something is written and how it is pronounced. I suppose the tendency for English-speakers is, when encountering a strange term or name, to apply the familiar. Hence, why people so often say "Nerv" like "nerve" (instead of the correct German pronunciation), "Evangelion" as if they were saying "evangelist", and "Sachiel" like "satchel" with a "i" in it...* Granted, those are all "loan words", so mispronouncing them is a LEETLE more forgiveable than saying "Kaworu" and "Aoba" wrong.

* And herein comes to distinct advantage of being able to read katakana (and knowing a little about how foreign sounds are converted into it) -- you can make a very educated guess about how these wacky things are supposed to be said. All too often, it's not what you might expect.

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 08:19 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:02 pm

Reichu wrote:The stupid part is, Japanese pronunciation is ridiculously straightforward once you know the basic rules. It's a phonetic language, unlike English, where there is not necessarily any correlation with how something is written and how it is pronounced.



Actually, there is quite a high degree of method in the apparent madness as the following page make clear:

http://www.zompist.com/spell.html

- admittedly that's a lot more rules than how to pronounce German or Italian, where you only need to specify on the letter or diphthong level.

Reichu wrote:I suppose the tendency for English-speakers is, when encountering a strange term or name, to apply the familiar.



The language mill is embedded quite deeply, quite early, and too many Anglophones are functional monoglots.

Reichu wrote:Hence, why people so often say "Nerv" like "nerve" (instead of the correct German pronunciation), "Evangelion" as if they were saying "evangelist", and "Sachiel" like "satchel" with a "i" in it...* Granted, those are all "loan words", so mispronouncing them is a LEETLE more forgiveable than saying "Kaworu" and "Aoba" wrong.



While the gutteral "ch" isn't quite as bad as our "th" (or the Greek "Θ") is for many people, it certainly isn't part of the normal English palette of phonemes. You need to have at least added the extra meta-rule that foreign words generally have hard-g and gutteral-ch (which then screws you over something rotten when you try Italian...). This before we get to what Erse or Polsk do to the values of the same glyphs (Lodz, pronounced Whoosh).

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 21:56 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Actually, there is quite a high degree of method in the apparent madness as the following page make clear:



I'm aware of that, but the complete lack of efficiency is still truly appalling. I've long loathed English's various inadequacies, which might seem odd coming from me, considering there are very few words I chronically mispell...

The language mill is embedded quite deeply, quite early, and too many Anglophones are functional monoglots.



That would include me, but I still attempt to pronounce words correctly, as opposed to butchering them with Anglo "sensibilities". There are a LOT of people who REFUSE to learn the correct pronunciations of borrowed words/names, on the basis "I'm speaking English." Image Some people are just so insensitive.

(The funny part is, I chronically mispronounce plenty of words in my native language... That's the price I pay for sensitivity, I guess.)

While the gutteral "ch"



Are you talking about "Sachiel"? For whatever reason, the katakana implies that the "ch" is a hard "k" sound -- how could you miss my rambling on this in the commentary? Image -- where one would EXPECT a guttural "ch", assuming "Sachiel" is Hebrew-derived. And it's not as if katakana is without a way of representing this. Listen to Shinji in DEATH when he says "Pachelbel": "PAHHERUBERU". Image

[quote]isn't quite as bad as our "th" (or the Greek "Θ") is for many people[quote]

Which "th"? We've got two of them, after all.

This before we get to what Erse or Polsk do to the values of the same glyphs (Lodz, pronounced Whoosh).



Please elaborate.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2004, 22:59 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm

Reichu wrote:That would include me, but I still attempt to pronounce words correctly, as opposed to butchering them with Anglo "sensibilities". There are a LOT of people who REFUSE to learn the correct pronunciations of borrowed words/names, on the basis "I'm speaking English." Some people are just so insensitive.



And for some strange reason, the British are sometimes even worse in this regard then Americans. Most Americans at least know how to pronounce Don Quixote, (Kee-ho-tay), but the British pronounce Quixote to rhyme with fix it. They also pronounce Don Juan with the English "j", another name Americans typically get right.

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 02:20 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm

thewayneiac wrote:And for some strange reason, the British are sometimes even worse in this regard then Americans. Most Americans at least know how to pronounce Don Quixote, (Kee-ho-tay), but the British pronounce Quixote to rhyme with fix it. They also pronounce Don Juan with the English "j", another name Americans typically get right.



How dare you generalise, you boorish colonial, you! Image

Seriously, though, I pronounce both of those correctly, and have not heard anyone of any serious level of intellect pronounce either one incorrectly. I'm English, in case you didn't know.

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 02:23 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm

Soluzar wrote:How dare you generalise, you boorish colonial, you! Image

Seriously, though, I pronounce both of those correctly, and have not heard anyone of any serious level of intellect pronounce either one incorrectly. I'm English, in case you didn't know.



I forgot to mention that British people also can't spell English. For instance they spell words that ought to be spelled with -ize with -ise instead. Image

But seriously, the most imfamous example I can think of is Byron's famous Don Juan poem. Doesn't it require the incorrect pronunciation in order to scan and rhyme properly? A sophisticated man like Byron should have known better.

But perhaps the problem isn't as widespread as I thought, though I certainly have heard British people refer to "Don Quixit".

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 02:57 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm

thewayneiac wrote:I forgot to mention that British people also can't spell English. For instance they spell words that ought to be spelled with -ize with -ise instead. Image



Now, now. The English invented the damn language. We're the ones who are aberrant. Oh, excuse me... "Rebellious."

Granted, I do prefer some of the spelling changes Americans imposed, just because they made things SLIGHTLY more phonetic. One wonders why they weren't more thorough, though. The world would be a much better place without these ridiculous -ough word endings, for one thing.

Regarding your "Don Quixote" example, it seems kind of odd that Americans mispronounce "Mexico", isn't it?

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 05:48 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

On the gutteral "CH"

Reichu wrote:Are you talking about "Sachiel"?



Yes. The "ch" cluster in "foreign" words tends to repesent a sound somewhere from the Scots "Loch" to the German "Ich" - rather than the English "choose". Of course that doesn't work for the softer Romance languages which use it for more for something like our "sh" (the French "Chez", for example).

English being the Borg of all languages, after you've managed the first 60-odd rules, you then have to swap into the "If this is a partially assimilated word from language Z then use language Z's rules" mode


Reichu wrote:Which "th"? We've got two of them, after all.



A Frenchman will still substitute 'z', whether it's 'ð' or 'þ' that he's trying to say.

He'll also refer to "Don Kishott" to mean the guy who tilted at windmills - though I have some memory of "x" being a "sh" sound in one of the closely related languages that get lumped together as "Spanish".

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Mr. Tines This before we get to what Erse or Polsk do to the values of the same glyphs (Lodz, pronounced Whoosh).


Please elaborate.

That was a bit of a cheat on my part - the "accented" Polish 'Ł' as in Łodz, or Wałensa sounds to the English ear like "W".

As for Irish - a colleague of mine has an Irish wife, and they went to extraordinary lengths to find names for their family so that that both sets of grandparents could agree on the pronunciation. To the English eye, much of written Irish looks like it's been drowned in alphabet soup, and is pronounced with half to 2/3 of the letters being silent.

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 11:00 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

thewayneiac wrote:I forgot to mention that British people also can't spell English. For instance they spell words that ought to be spelled with -ize with -ise instead. Image

But seriously, the most imfamous example I can think of is Byron's famous Don Juan poem. Doesn't it require the incorrect pronunciation in order to scan and rhyme properly? A sophisticated man like Byron should have known better.



To be fair, it's hardly the only time that poets, even great poets have forced a pronounciation klunker on us in order to preserve scansion. My thoughs are that he did know better, but chose the option which involved the lessser amount of rewriting,

But perhaps the problem isn't as widespread as I thought, though I certainly have heard British people refer to "Don Quixit".



As have I, but only in two sets of circumstances: 1) Their tongue is firmly in their cheek, or 2) They are at the 'poorly educated' end of the spectrum.

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2004, 11:55 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

Hmmm...It occurs to me that there might be some people out there who have no idea what we are talking about.

So here is the first stanza:

I WANT a hero: an uncommon want,
When every year and month sends forth a new one,
Till, after cloying the gazettes with cant,
The age discovers he is not the true one;
Of such as these I should not care to vaunt,
I 'll therefore take our ancient friend Don Juan-
We all have seen him, in the pantomime,
Sent to the devil somewhat ere his time.

Sorry folks, I can't post the whole thing, because it's many thousands of lines.

Originally posted on: 01-Jan-2005, 01:08 GMT

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Postby UltimateX [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

thewayneiac wrote:Hmmm...It occurs to me that there might be some people out there who have no idea what we are talking about.



To say the least...

But, uh...I didn't find the English dub to be TOO terrible, when compared to the "average" quality of dubs being put out by a lot of companies. Certainly, there are outstanding dubbing efforts (Cowboy Bebop, which I think is better than the original Japanese), but when compared to most, Eva ain't so bad.

I tell you though, it really, really helps if you intently watch the dub, and whenever Asuka is about the speak, quickly turn it to Japanese. Image

Originally posted on: 01-Jan-2005, 01:43 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

I tried watching Bebop in English once. I didn't last too long... probably due to the fact that hearing a Solid Snake soundalike in place of Koichi Yamadera triggered my sympathetic nervous system.

Originally posted on: 01-Jan-2005, 04:13 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

UltimateX wrote:To say the least...

But, uh...I didn't find the English dub to be TOO terrible, when compared to the "average" quality of dubs being put out by a lot of companies. Certainly, there are outstanding dubbing efforts (Cowboy Bebop, which I think is better than the original Japanese), but when compared to most, Eva ain't so bad.

I tell you though, it really, really helps if you intently watch the dub, and whenever Asuka is about the speak, quickly turn it to Japanese. Image



While the Eva dub might not be one of the worst compared to other bad dubs, like Love Hina for instance, I find that it is one of the worst compared to the well nigh perfect original. It's the biggest drop in seiyuu quality in history.

I can't agree about Cowboy Bebop; Faye's dubbed voice alone is enough to drive me away from it. She's supposed to sound cynical and jaded, not like some sort of Fujiko wannabe. I've never heard an English dub of any show that comes even close to the Japanese original.

Originally posted on: 01-Jan-2005, 19:38 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 pm

thewayneiac wrote:While the Eva dub might not be one of the worst compared to other bad dubs, like Love Hina for instance, I find that it is one of the worst compared to the well nigh perfect original. It's the biggest drop in seiyuu quality in history.



Somewhere in the world Incisiviss head is exploding. Image

But if you want the worst of the worst for dubs, look no further then the 3x3 Eyes dub. Not only is the acting bad, but it sounds like it was recorded in a bathroom on a cassette.

Originally posted on: 01-Jan-2005, 21:47 GMT

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Postby Levon [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:05 pm

I don't think 3X3 Eyes has that bad of a dub. I think its better than Evangelions(which I think is decent). ADV has improved so much since Evangelion thank godImage

These are the worse dubs to me(coming from a dub fan):

The Guyver
Harmagedon
Kenshin OVA
Devil Man OVA
Mobile Suit Gundam movie trilogy
Dragonball Ball Z
Robotech
Crest of the Stars
Anything by 4Kids

Originally posted on: 07-Jan-2005, 15:52 GMT

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Postby Brendan Brown [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:05 pm

thewayneiac wrote:I've never heard an English dub of any show that comes even close to the Japanese original.



Ever heard the dub for FLCL? Start it in Japanese and then switch to English halfway through the show...then feel the dissonance as for a brief second you can't tell which language you're listening to. The mimicry is astonishing.

Originally posted on: 07-Jan-2005, 16:43 GMT

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Postby Levon [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:05 pm

Brendan Brown wrote:Ever heard the dub for FLCL? Start it in Japanese and then switch to English halfway through the show...then feel the dissonance as for a brief second you can't tell which language you're listening to. The mimicry is astonishing.




I'v always said it in the past that it doesn't make sense but I think the FLCL dub sounds Japanese.....Sometimes I don't understand myself but thats how I feelImage


But anyway, some anime fans can't be satisfied with any dubs no matter how well made they are so its useless to tell them otherwise.

Originally posted on: 07-Jan-2005, 17:01 GMT


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