CanonRAP wrote:For whatever reason, I always dismiss that scene as well.

Tsk tsk! I'll admit I still have virtually no idea what's happening in that scene, but I think I've made at least a start, and it's an element that's quite relevant to this thread. Deciphering the scene is probably going to be a job requiring some serious analytic work...

Maybe I'm just drowzy from waking up, but I believe the word in NGE for Angel is shito, which is technically Messenger.

Needs revision work, but whatever.

@Jabberwock: Is there any particular reason why you're dismissing the Japanese "character play" in #24's title? (I believe the two versions of shisha in particular.) Japanese thrives on this sort of stuff, as far as I know, being abundant in homophones only distinguishable by kanji and/or context. This is not the only instance of katakana being used in NGE to create ambiguity in a title, either (but that one is for another time and place). Also, just FYI, the idea of #24's Japanese title having three meanings was not something I came up with.

I'm not currently following your take on "The Final Shore"... Just out of curiosity, do you buy into the concept of "Mama Kaworu"?

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 02:46 PM

I made it sound like I was dismissing your reading outright (especially with that sarcastic *gasp*), when I honestly should have owned up to not understanding some of what you where talking about. Looking at it now, I see what you were getting at, but at the time I had just boiled it down to specifically the shisha readings.

The truth is... I just didn't get it.



The part at the end, my "The Final Shore" bit... That can really be discarded. It just sounded poetic or something when I thought it up.



"Mama Kaworu"... I don't want to mix up "Mama-Kaworu" with "Femme-Kaworu" so I won't assume know the entirety of the prior (i'll reread this thread later to try to distill that out of it). I'll try to restate my meaning with less fluff...

At his core, Shinji wanted, deserately, the love of a parent (and family to a lesser extent). His father would not provide; his mother could not provide.

Shinji was presented opportunities to form a father/brother bond with Kaji; he missed them. Misato was presented opportunities to form a mother/sister bond with Shinji; she bungled them.

Shinji became unconsciously drawn to Rei, seeing in her a mother figure, but only in physical ways (she shows little motherly emotions). Shinji is then drawn unconsciously (or perhaps consciously) to Kaworu, seeing in him a friend and parent figure, but mostly in emotional ways (save the one platonic(?) placing of a hand).

Whether Shinji saw Kaworu as a mother or a father figure, I can't be sure, but the later assuredly filled the role of a parent figure. The unconditional love Kaworu offered was a vital thing missing from Shinji's life.

I think a specific gender tag is unnecessary. The pure, distilled love of a parent for their child is, to me, similar to that felt in a religious figure. I would hesitate to call Jesus either a mother or father figure, but he can certainly be seen as a parental figure. If feel similarly about Kaworu. "Mama Kaworu" seems just as appropriate as "Papa Kaworu".

That said, if I must be gender biased, simplistically looking at a father as a protector/mentor and a mother as a protector/nurturer, Gendo definitely fails as the former and Kaworu performs well as the later.

[edited for verb tense and spelling]

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 03:45 PM

Jabberwok wrote:The truth is... I just didn't get it.

If'n you have any particular questions...

The part at the end, my "The Final Shore" bit... That can really be discarded. It just sounded poetic or something when I thought it up.

I wasn't implying dismissal, more that I just wasn't following along.

"Mama Kaworu"... I don't want to mix up "Mama-Kaworu" with "Femme-Kaworu" so I won't assume know the entirety of the prior (i'll reread this thread later to try to distill that out of it).

Femme-Kaworu refers to the much-loved </irony> hypothesis that Kaworu is actually "female in Eva-like manner". (The Geektionary entry needs to be fixed a little.) This idea of mine actually grew (in part) out of what I'm now calling "Mama Kaworu". Vis true identity is that of Adam (and Kaworu is more than aware of this), a Seed of Life and mother of the Apostles, and thus, much as with Rei, a maternal nature is at the core of Kaworu's very existence and is inherently inseverible. This is reinforced in various ways besides the fundamental link-ups, and includes intimations that Shinji actually considers Kaworu a surrogate mother on some level.

I've never really been able to introduce these concepts on more than a scattered and incomplete level, and there doesn't seem to be an incredibly huge demand for them. (There are those who even seem to find femme-Kaworu fringe to the point of being offensive.) I am a rather stubborn one, though... Mama Kaworu is decidedly the more important one to get out -- but I'll inevitably be plugging the "other one" now and again, if for no other reason than to prove that "No, people do NOT believe everything Reichu says."

Come to think of it, though, sempai explicitly told me that the other Kaworu-related stuff* ought to take precedence... He probably knows better than I.

* You know, the way I left the "Adam's Embryo" thread hanging.

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 08:21 PM

Reichu wrote:Femme-Kaworu refers to the much-loved hypothesis that Kaworu is actually "female in Eva-like manner". (The Geektionary entry needs to be fixed a little.) This idea of mine actually grew (in part) out of what I'm now calling "Mama Kaworu". Vis true identity is that of Adam (and Kaworu is more than aware of this), a Seed of Life and mother of the Apostles, and thus, much as with Rei, a maternal nature is at the core of Kaworu's very existence and is inherently inseverible. This is reinforced in various ways besides the fundamental link-ups, and includes intimations that Shinji actually considers Kaworu a surrogate mother on some level.

I think I agree more with Jabberwok on this one...that Kaworu plays pretty much both roles; while he appears male (...somewhat) he has many feminine qualities. I wouldn't go as far as call him either 'male' or 'female', but simply 'neutral'. At Kaworu's core (no pun intended), ve is a mother, but then his mysteriously inherited Lilim body (Akira, anyone?) also seems to grant him so fatherly features. And not all men dislike touching other men, in a brotherly-chap sort of fashion.

"No, people do NOT believe everything Reichu says."

Whoever said people are! This is important kinda work here! Please!

Come to think of it, though, sempai explicitly told me that the other Kaworu-related stuff* ought to take precedence... He probably knows better than I.

Would sempai be Shin-seiki???

You know, the way I left the "Adam's Embryo" thread hanging.

I don't think anyone is blaming you for/despite that

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 10:47 PM

CanonRAP wrote:I think I agree more with Jabberwok on this one...that Kaworu plays pretty much both roles; while he appears male (...somewhat) he has many feminine qualities. I wouldn't go as far as call him either 'male' or 'female', but simply 'neutral'. At Kaworu's core (no pun intended), ve is a mother, but then his mysteriously inherited Lilim body (Akira, anyone?) also seems to grant him so fatherly features. And not all men dislike touching other men, in a brotherly-chap sort of fashion.

Having (so it would seem) the image of Misato's femme-boy pops (why do you think Misato likes Shinji so much? lulz) makes it sort of convoluted, but I'm probably going to be a stubborn @$$ about this and stick to my guns until I've shot all my ammo. Whenever the hell that happens. (Fringe theories must be given their chance at life!) Meantime, I expect to be very lonely.

So you don't think Kaworu's sex is ambiguous anymore?

Whoever said people are! This is important kinda work here! Please!

Hmm? I don't follow. I was partially making a reference to DatDude's assertion that, paraphrased, I have a posse of "yes men" who will agree with anything that I can write a few well-articulated sentences about.

Would sempai be Shin-seiki???

Mayyyyyyy-be.

I don't think anyone is blaming you for/despite that

Yeah, the thread sucked anyway. </irony> But, man. I sure stopped at a bad place.

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 12:48 AM

Reichu wrote:So you don't think Kaworu's sex is ambiguous anymore?

*points*

me, two posts up wrote:I wouldn't go as far as call him either 'male' or 'female', but simply 'neutral'

Well, all right, that doesn't really explain exactly what I think...but good enough.

Hmm? I don't follow.

Ah, well...

Mayyyyyyy-be.

I assume that's 'yes' .

Yeah, the thread sucked anyway. But, man. I sure stopped at a bad place.

Nah, this thread doesn't suck.

(Okay, not everyone rush to disagree, please.)

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 01:49 AM

CanonRAP wrote:Ah, well...

So I'm stuck high and dry? Phooey.

I assume that's 'yes' .

Probably.

Nah, this thread doesn't suck.

(Okay, not everyone rush to disagree, please.)

No, no, no. I was talking about the "Adam's Embryo" thread, which is, without a doubt, one of the Greatest Threads That Ever Was. I mean, "Keel Lorenz Made My Dad Gay!". You really can't get any better than that! When all is said and done, wasn't that originally Magami's doing? I need to read the pre-2006 part of the thread again sometime...

If we can add, "Kaworu turns yaoi fangirls into lesbians!" to that, I can die happy. But I always did have lofty dreams.

What were we talking about again?

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 01:48 PM

Reichu wrote:So I'm stuck high and dry? Phooey.

*smirk*

Probably.

Reichu wrote:No, no, no. I was talking about the "Adam's Embryo" thread, which is, without a doubt, one of the Greatest Threads That Ever Was.

Actually, I was talking about that thread, because some people who I know have read it found it "disturbingly enlightening". Don't ask me why.

"Kaworu turns yaoi fangirls into lesbians!"

Win!

What were we talking about again?

Iunno. lawlz.



Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 04:05 PM

CanonRAP wrote:Actually, I was talking about that thread

Oh. I thought, by "this", you meant "the thread that we're currently inside", but that WAS confusing given the context...

because some people who I know have read it found it "disturbingly enlightening". Don't ask me why.

My deranged rantings, "disturbingly enlightening" to anyone but myself and at least one self-admitted zombie-pawn? Can I ask anyway?

Win!

I know.

Iunno. lawlz.

Oh. Well, just to make at least one of these posts semi-relevant, a random thought I had that doesn't require preparing exhausting analysis (as would the Mama Kaworu thesis I summarized earlier): I don't think having a creepy resemblance to the Doc and the associations with Kaji are necessarily acting to truly "androgynize" Kaworu and "detract" from the most fundamental level of vis nature (according to my little hypothesis, anyhow), that of a mother. This sort of weirdness actually is a recurring element throughout the show. The first example that comes to mind is the way the entry plug is first and foremost a symbolic womb, but it does a couple of phallic things, as well. Another one: Gendo forming a mock umbilical cord between himself and Rei -- oh my!

Just sayin'.

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 04:44 PM

Reichu wrote:No, no, no. I was talking about the "Adam's Embryo" thread, which is, without a doubt, one of the Greatest Threads That Ever Was. I mean, "Keel Lorenz Made My Dad Gay!". You really can't get any better than that! When all is said and done, wasn't that originally Magami's doing? I need to read the pre-2006 part of the thread again sometime...

Still wouldn't have been as awesome as that without your "Fritz" (yes, FRITZ) dialogues to intially inspire moi...

Originally posted on: Yesterday, 11:23 AM

Magami No ER wrote:Still wouldn't have been as awesome as that without your "Fritz" (yes, FRITZ) dialogues to intially inspire moi...

Wow. Fritz. Such humble beginnings. Should I be glad I've forgotten most of the stuff about them?

In any case, Akira >>>>>>>>>> Fritz. "Oh, Katsuragi-sensei is soooooo cute! Too bad he's married..." "Too bad he's GAY!" "... Usotsuki."

If you have anything meaningful to add to this thread, please do it, NOW.

Originally posted on: Yesterday, 08:03 PM

You forgot Fritz. XD
Hm, I tried to at least add somthing meaningful to another thread to make up for this...
*scans thread, blurts*
Despite my former MAJOR obession<I only say former due to his lack of screen time and more ambigious importance compared to other bishi's/>, I just don't tend to think of sex when seriously considering what their relationship means.
Not that their relationship is normal by any means, but then again, both aren't "quite"so..
He (lawlalalalahsune) just seems to be yet another mother figure(more of an indicator perhaps of their differing behavior between Adam and Lilith, not that Lilith was more incurious then the former, but actually, as I remember saying...quite some time ago, was a bit more devious, personified buy her taken over the planet with her seeds(all that stuff you talk of that I can never put into words quite well), and Rei I one's behavior, which is more knowlegable, to say she was more like Kaworu. After she died, I suppose became less like her former self, and hence her soul and Rei II, III body especially, don't link together as well as Rei I's did...Rei is, subtly, becoiming her own, slightly indifferent person. This may, if these ideas seem to click, may explain her curiosity of Kaworu..and stuff. Sorry for this long, dragging bracket topic.^^; )
that Shinji has been presented with, whom is different in that he tries to get close to more then Misato, the surrogate mother figure(scares him), Rei, the mysterious friend who SOMEHOW causes him to think of a mother(scares him), and Kaji, a sort of a father figure I suppose.(es 6 feet under)
At this point('24), it would seem that Kaworu is all Shinji has, until he does something to "scare"(more like anger) him, as Gendo did. So, after this, he hits rock bottom, denouces Misato as a mother figure for a second time ("You're so cold"), attempts sucide like his lovely emo Asuka, and realizes all he has now his a comotose Asuka and a "cursed" Eva, with more scary revelations to come via EoE.. Gee, I have no idea why destrado so easily overcame Shinji..^^;
This be just a rant...point of which being to get back into the swing of disscussion, which I'm more then happy to when asked, wheras it harder for me to do so out of blue...

Originally posted on: Yesterday, 10:10 PM