Designation of Angels

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TS-Scorpio [ANF]
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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:59 pm

Adam is always regarded as the first angel, and Lilith the second. But going by the information (both from the series and NGE2 CI) they stated as being equal beings and Seeds of Life.

Tabris*, Bardiel, Leliel etc are all "Angels", Adams children. Why are Adam and Lilith incorrectly labelled as angels too?

I don't know if I worded that well or made my point properly Image. It's late =P

*Furthermore, if Tabris (a Lilim based life form carrying the soul of a SoL) is regarded as an angel, why isn't Rei (a Lilim based life form carrying the soul of a SoL) designated as one by anyone?

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 01:51 PM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 am

By EoE, Misato comes to realize (and basically tells the viewers) the terms "Angel" and "human" are interchangeable. You can either think of the Angels as humans who evolved differently, or you can think of humans as the 18th Angel.

Putting that aside, the term Angel can also be used to describe any alien-type being in the show.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 02:31 PM

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Postby Hekym [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 am

TS-Scorpio wrote:But going by the information (both from the series and NGE2 CI) they stated as being equal beings and Seeds of Life.

If this is so, what are the implications of Adam and Lillith "joining" in the third impact? Would it force humanity into beng their children and thus, a perfect entity?

>> Why doesn't anyone designate Rei as the final angel? That is, from what I've read, what always seemed to be the case to me. Misato was the one who stated humans were the final angel... but Rei epitomizes that theory, especially in that technology was ultimately stabbing humanity in the back once they used the Angel's material to create EVA and Rei. I thought they hinted towards that in episode 24 too, when Rei grew an AT field and was "just like Tabris". It was intersting that Tabris' defeat came after what was essentially a battle in his mind between admiring Shinji and humans and destroying humans. After Shinji, Rei's was too...

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 03:20 PM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 am

TS-Scorpio wrote:Adam is always regarded as the first angel, and Lilith the second. But going by the information (both from the series and NGE2 CI) they stated as being equal beings and Seeds of Life.

Tabris*, Bardiel, Leliel etc are all "Angels", Adams children. Why are Adam and Lilith incorrectly labelled as angels too?

The term "Angel" refers to any offshoot (I'm sure there's a better word) of the FAR. The order I think refers to the order in which they arived on earth. Humanity is referred to collectively as an angel.

Rei would probably be equal to the second angel because she has Lilith's soul.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 04:51 PM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 am

Hekym wrote:If this is so, what are the implications of Adam and Lillith "joining" in the third impact? Would it force humanity into beng their children and thus, a perfect entity?

The joining of Adam and Lilith is something that only Gendo concieved (btw, I think the "forbidden fusion" bit is a reference to the Judaic story of Adam and Lilith, not their NGE counterparts). Gendo wanted the power of a god and the power to control Third Impact, so his goal was to fuse with both Seeds of Life.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 05:45 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 am

The Angel/Human mix-up derives from the fact that the terms are not used in a consistent manner throughout the show. The term "human" is normally applied to H. sapiens (Lilim), and "Angel" either refers to Adam's offspring (The Enemy), or Adam and her children collectively. However, it's clear from such details as Adam being the "first human" (Gendo, #08), Armisael being "[the] person we call an Angel", Evas being people/humans (#23), Kaworu being "a human like [Shinji]" and "a person just like [Rei]", etc., that something is amiss. Misato creates even more chaos in #25':
"Shinji-kun. We humans were born from the one called Lilith -- a source of life, just like Adam.
We are the 18th Angel.
The other Angels were a different possibility: a race of humans who abandoned human form.
But, sadly, we've had no choice but to reject one another.
Even though they were our fellow human beings..."...by adding us as an entry to the "Angel Lineup". "We humans" are the Lilim, #18. The "other Angels", distinguished from Adam and Lilith here, are Adam's children, #03~#16. (I've excluded Tabris, for all intents and purposes, due to his anomalous nature.) So, what is a human? What is an Angel?

Basically, everything identified in NGE as an "Angel" is also human, along with Rei and the Evas (who have no known "Angel" designations). But who's missing? Even though Gendo calls Adam "the first human", he's only correct on the local level (Adam was the first human on Earth) -- the First Ancestral Race were the first humans, period. Once you take them into consideration, the meaning of "Angel" finally falls into place.

What does the word mean, in and of itself? "Messenger." With what do we usually associate the word? The entities who work under the Big G, "messengers of God". Etymologically, "apostle", the literal translation of shito, means "messenger", too. Doesn't the CI say that, to humans (= Lilim) and Angels (= Adam's children), the FAR are essentially gods? There is also Rei's line in #14, "Are people something created by kami-sama? Are people something created by people?" Perhaps both, as it were.

So one might think of it this way: The First Ancestral Race is "God", and the Seeds dispatched by them, plus all humans that ultimately result, are their "messengers" -- their "Angels". So, what's the message? Humanity, to hazard a guess.

If "Angels" = "all humans besides the first", then Rei and the Evas are Angels, too, even though they don't have official numbers. The Evas would carry "19th" well, IMO.

[I: Seeds of Life]
1. Adam (First Arrival)
2. Lilith (Second Arrival)
[II. Adam's Children]
3. Sachiel ~ 16. Armisael (Natural Offspring)
17. Tabris (Bastard Child)
[III. Lilith's Human Children]
18. Lilim
[IV. ???]
19. ???

TS-Scorpio wrote:*Furthermore, if Tabris (a Lilim based life form carrying the soul of a SoL)

The actual situation with Tabris is sticky. Human genes diving into one of Adam's eggs produced him. But Tabris shows up on the Magi scanners as "Angel". Compare this to Lilith, who, after morphing and beginning her ascent, registers on the Magi as Pattern Blue + Human (= "not Angel"). ...buh? Even keeping in mind the discrepancies with the definitions, I still can't make heads or tails of this.

Blader wrote:The joining of Adam and Lilith is something that only Gendo concieved (btw, I think the "forbidden fusion" bit is a reference to the Judaic story of Adam and Lilith, not their NGE counterparts).

If it was a reference to the Jewish tale alone and held no context in NGE, then he wouldn't have mentioned it. (I also can't recall anything about "forbidden fusions" in the tale, since Adam and Lilith were SUPPOSED to be mates.)

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 08:38 PM

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Postby Hekym [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 am

Reichu wrote:Compare this to Lilith, who, after morphing and beginning her ascent, registers on the Magi as Pattern Blue + Human (= "not Angel"). ...buh? Even keeping in mind the discrepancies with the definitions, I still can't make heads or tails of this.


Maybe it was because of Rei's presence? She mostly identified herself as human, where Tabris thought of himself as an angel. That's the smae way the series identified them too: It might be different to make a point ie "humans created Instrumentality, it's as much your doing as the angels'".

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 09:18 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

The Magi scans are based on the genetic pattern (and some incomprehensible stuff about lightwaves). "Angels" (= Shamshel, Gaghiel, etc.) are only 99.89% different from H. sapiens. Makes me wonder what sorts of criteria this thing is operating under if an "Angel" who was, apparently, 'immaculately conceived' by Lilim genes shows up as an "Angel", but Lilith shows up as "Human". I mean, what the hell?

FYI, in #25:
TEXT:
Why did you kill him?

Shinji:
Because Kaworu was... He was an Angel!

TEXT:
Even though he was also human?

Shinji:
No! An Angel! He was our enemy!

TEXT:
Even though he was human, like you?

Shinji:
No! No! You're wrong!

Rei:
Even though he was a person, just like me?

Shinji:
No! He was an Angel!Armisael and the Evas were also identified as "person"s.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 09:39 PM

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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Yay Reichu ^__^

I just wanted to point this out because it seemed like a wee bit of a discrepancy (in NGE? NO WAI!).

I was just under the initial impression of:
Everything = human
But specifically:
Adam and Lilith = Seeds of Life
Liliths offspring = Lilim
Adams offspring = Angels/Shito
EVAs = Shito bodies with Lilim souls
Kaworu and Rei = Lilim bodies with SoL souls

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 02:40 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Well, hopefully the "true definition" thing makes sense... Couple of points (that might be reiteration, but forgive me, it's early):

- Since "Angel/Shito" extends to "all humans besides the first", Adam's offspring really do not have a name specifically for themselves (annoyingly). [Sometimes I use "Apostle", in English, to fill the gap.]
- One could almost say that the Evas have the bodies of SoLs. Image
- Lilim refer to only a small portion of Lilith's total offspring, the one that counts as 'human'

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 04:18 AM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Blader wrote:The joining of Adam and Lilith is something that only Gendo concieved (btw, I think the "forbidden fusion" bit is a reference to the Judaic story of Adam and Lilith, not their NGE counterparts).

I assumed this had something to do with the fact that two SoLs weren't supposed to be on the same planet at the same time -- much less the same body.

Reichu wrote:Pattern Blue + Human (= "not Angel").

Pattern Blue = Li'l Adam
Human = Lilith

Makes me wonder what sorts of criteria this thing is operating under if an "Angel" who was, apparently, 'immaculately conceived' by Lilim genes shows up as an "Angel", but Lilith shows up as "Human". I mean, what the hell?

Maybe it operates under something like the 2/3 law but for Adam-born lifeforms. Image

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 08:16 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

kaos wrote:I assumed this had something to do with the fact that two SoLs weren't supposed to be on the same planet at the same time -- much less the same body.

That seems like a reasonable assessment to me.

Pattern Blue = Li'l Adam
Human = Lilith

Then what Pattern is Lilith? Image All lifeforms have one of these "blood type patterns", it would seem. Pattern Blue is mentioned... a lot, Orange (Leliel's shadow, Bardiel, plus Armisael initially cycles between Blue and Orange), Sepia (Shinji during Salvage Op), Green (mentioned during Zero's cross-synch test), and Red (EVA-01 shifts to it -- with GNK's help?). I might be forgetting a couple. I bet somebody out there has figured out what this 'pattern' crap means.

Maybe it operates under something like the 2/3 law but for Adam-born lifeforms. Image

"2/3 law"?

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 08:33 AM

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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Reichu wrote:- Since "Angel/Shito" extends to "all humans besides the first", Adam's offspring really do not have a name specifically for themselves (annoyingly). [Sometimes I use "Apostle", in English, to fill the gap.]

Yup. That's why i was jumping around calling them angels or shito in the first place. Lilith=Lilim, Adam=...Adim....I phail ='(

Reichu wrote:- One could almost say that the Evas have the bodies of SoLs. Image

That's what I meant *shifts eyes*

Reichu wrote:- Lilim refer to only a small portion of Lilith's total offspring, the one that counts as 'human'

Why'd she bother with other animals then? o.O

Unless "human" is just LCL/primordial soup, and everything else evolved in its own way. Which would make sense about the "Apostles" ( Image ) too since you raised a point in another thread about them containing LCL (Leliel when shot at).

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 09:22 AM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Maybe the "Pattern Blue" reading coming from GNR had to do with the fact that Adam was inside her? And since Adam is the progenitor of Angels, I'd imagine he/she/it would be classified as "Pattern Blue."

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 10:00 AM

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Reichu wrote:I bet somebody out there has figured out what this 'pattern' crap means.

Regarding Rei: I would assume Nerv's "angel radar" has been rigged in such a way that it ignores her presence and displays her blood type incorrectly. It would draw unwanted attention if sirens started going off every time she enters the HQ.

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 10:32 AM

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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

^In the case of Kaworu and Rei, in #24 they were only detected once they deployed their AT Fields.

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 10:46 AM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Reichu wrote:Sepia (Shinji during Salvage Op)

Sepia???

Reichu wrote:"2/3 law"?

Appologies. I meant the "one drop rule", referring to the old pre-civil-rights law saying that if you even had one drop of African blood then you were considered black. I was applying it to the Magi in that maybe they have the same rule for Angels.

Uh... anyway... Image

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 11:09 AM

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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

kaos wrote:Sepia???

Appologies. I meant the "one drop rule", referring to the old pre-civil-rights law saying that if you even had one drop of African blood then you were considered black. I was applying it to the Magi in that maybe they have the same rule for Angels.

Uh... anyway... Image

...The Magi are BLACK? o.O

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 11:14 AM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Okay.. Let's please just not talk about that anymore. Image Image

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 12:46 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:01 am

Blader5489 wrote:Maybe the "Pattern Blue" reading coming from GNR had to do with the fact that Adam was inside her?

Simplest deduction: Lilith herself is Pattern Blue. Without having any concrete idea of what "blood type pattern" means, making the assumption that Lilith 'shouldn't' be Blue is unnecessary. Start with the basics, fanwank later.

And since Adam is the progenitor of Angels, I'd imagine he/she/it would be classified as "Pattern Blue."

You're acquainted with the "Adam, the entity who is our mother" line, right?

kaos wrote:I meant the "one drop rule", referring to the old pre-civil-rights law saying that if you even had one drop of African blood then you were considered black. I was applying it to the Magi in that maybe they have the same rule for Angels.

Ohhhhhh. That would work. Image "Adam genes detected! Not one of our Evas! Destroy!"

Sepia???

Better if you watch #20 yourself and see all the crap that's going on, but:
IBUKI:
It's no good. The ego border is frozen in a loop.

RITSUKO:
Try firing all range of waveforms in all directions.

RITSUKO:
It's not working. The signals are being trapped in Klein space.

Misato:
What does that mean?

RITSUKO:
It means we failed.

RITSUKO (OFF):
Abort intervention. Reverse tangent plug.
Return the additive value to zero.

IBUKI:
Yes, Ma'am.

AOBA:
Destrudo reaction in the old area. Pattern sepia.

HYUGA:
We've detected a change in the core pulse too!
Plus 0.3 is confirmed!

RITSUKO:
Maintenance of the status quo is top priority.
Prevent back flow.

IBUKI:
Yes, Ma'am.
Plus 0.5... 0.8... This is odd. I can't stop it!

RITSUKO:
What is this? Why?
Don't you want to come back, Shinji?
TS-Scorpio wrote:In the case of Kaworu and Rei, in #24 they were only detected once they deployed their AT Fields.

And Rei didn't have hers up long enough for a full scan to be possible, or some such thing.
Misato:
What's the situation?

HYUGA:
It's an AT Field!

AOBA:
The same kind of AT Field that we saw earlier
has developed near the barrier around Terminal Dogma!

IBUKI:
It's entering the barrier!

Misato:
It can't be! Another Angel?!

AOBA:
It's no good! We can't confirm that!
Oh, no, it disappeared!

Misato:
Disappeared?! The Angel did?!
...The Magi are BLACK? o.O

And why not? It worked in "Blazing Saddles"...

Oh, wait. Nevermind.

Why'd she bother with other animals then? o.O

Evolution.

Unless "human" is just LCL/primordial soup, and everything else evolved in its own way.

...eh?

Which would make sense about the "Apostles" ( ) too since you raised a point in another thread about them containing LCL (Leliel when shot at).

"Apostles containing LCL" isn't quite what I was going for... From here.

Reichu wrote:The Cosmic Seed bit is followed by a series of entries about how at first "there was only a universe of water", also. That's not anything unusual in mythology, of course, but I suppose its presence here (in a kabbalistic context) and the word "universe" made me think of the LCL Sea. (Which I think may be closely related to the Dirac Sea. Consider for starters: when EVA-01 shoots at the "shadow", fluid that looks suspiciously like LCL slurts out, and Ritsuko later says of the Dirac Sea, "I think it's connected to another universe/space".)

Blader5489 wrote:It could also be a connection to the "beginning of the universe" scene at the start of the OP.

Reichu wrote:My thoughts exactly. The nebulous red domain that emerges from the "pulse" (the "holy spark"?) is called akai uchuu, or "red universe/space" (with the image of Sammael -- a depiction of the Ultimate Being? -- imposed upon it). A light appears in the distance and we begin our transition to blue, with the moving starfield, over which the Tree of Life (Fludd's, to be equated with what EVA-01 becomes in EoE) appears. We start at the bottom of the tree (the branches) and move to the top (roots). The flickering light motif appears and haloes of light engulf the screen -- signifying an emergence from some primordial womb?

The "red universe" motif shows up again in both its "nebula" form (behind the row of Rei in #15, on the ceiling of the "Arena" in #24, behind the Shinjiquarium in #26', etc.) and as a starfield (#14, during both the monologue and Shinji's contact with Zero; #20, Shinji's bizarre journey). ("Astral space" also occurs when Shinji first encounters Yui's soul in #16.) The Sea of LCL seems strangely familiar, not only in being a massive red space, but in having the stars visible on the horizon. (Along with various other things I can't properly articulate at the moment.)

Aside from Leliel splurting out LCL-looking fluid and perhaps leading to another place, there is something scribbled on Ritsuko's whiteboard about "Red Shift". Now, I really have no idea what the hell that is, but I accidentally stumbled across this, and the picture made me go, "Whoa. It's like NGE's starfields!"

Er, anyway. The "Prelude" of the OP probably has a lot of bearing on the f'd-upness that is EoE.

Image

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 02:28 PM


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