My 2 cents, something similar has been said before (I only read the first page), but I'll add my own:

#23

Ritsuko:[...]However the vessel which truly contains a soul is Rei.
Only she has a soul.
None of the other vessels have a soul.
There was nothing within the room of Gauf.
These Rei-like things here don't have a soul.
Nothing but vessels.
So I'll destroy them, because I hate them.

All the vessels (clones in the aquarium) are soulless except the vessel known as Rei. Why? Because "There was nothing within the room of Gauf". Knowing that Rei's soul is Lilith's own, to say that the place where Rei soul came from is now empty, means that Lilith doesn't have a soul. Thus, Lilith is (at least in the context of this quote) the room of Gauf.

There are 3 mentions of this room throughout the series, and only this one can be directly related to Lilith. One happens during 2I in Antartica, no Lilith there. And the last one is from EoE and could be indirectly related with Lilith.

EDIT: One more thing. If the Chamber of Gauf got empty after Rei got a soul, that couldn't have happened before 2004. All the pilots were born before that. Thus and again, the soulless children theory goes baseless.

Originally posted on: 15-Oct-2005, 01:38 GMT

Dr. Nick wrote:Come on, you know perfectly well why. Because she disagrees with the views of Seele and she wants to stop them from erasing humanity from existence.

This is a fair and noble objective, but the big question that still remains is why Yui must initiate Third Impact in order to do so.

Dr. Nick wrote:All the vessels (clones in the aquarium) are soulless except the vessel known as Rei. Why? Because "There was nothing within the room of Gauf". Knowing that Rei's soul is Lilith's own, to say that the place where Rei soul came from is now empty, means that Lilith doesn't have a soul. Thus, Lilith is (at least in the context of this quote) the room of Gauf.

To come at this point from a different angle, what if what Ritsuko was saying was that the Chamber of Guf was in effect, empty for the purposes Gerhin wish to use it for. Bear with me. Let's suppose that the Rei clones, being made from angel stuff, can only be naturally inhabited by the soul of an Angel. Unlike regular human souls, likely a dime a dozen, angels souls are quite finite and few in number.

Going back to some points brought up in this thread, Gerhrin and Nerv, though able to manipulate souls to a large extent, seem unable to actually create any. Or at least seem unable to create any souls that can be imbued into the Evangelions at the point of their creation.

The reason for this, may be that as Rituko states, The Chamber of Guf is empty. Not in the sense that there are no souls at all available, but in the sense that there are no suitable souls that can be imbued into the Rei's. There are no souls of a high enough calibur or quality available. Lilith has only one soul.

In this sense, perhaps Ritsuko is referring to the Chamber of Guf in a truely metaphorical sense. There is simply no soul anywhere that can be imbued into the Rei's except for Lilith's. So in a real sense though there may be souls available, there may as well be none for the purposes of Nerv.

Originally posted on: 15-Oct-2005, 14:33 GMT

OMF wrote:This is a fair and noble objective, but the big question that still remains is why Yui must initiate Third Impact in order to do so.

Aren't you done riding this hobby-horse yet? There comes a point when it's more civilised to just say "there's my view, there's yours, and there's insufficient evidence to reach a conclusion." That point has long since been reached, and exceeded in this pointless debate.

You may not agree with Dr. Nick, and in this instance, I cannot say that I do, but you must agree that there is little to be gained from further debate. The evidence has been laid out, and the analysis done. You can't always convince the other person, even if you feel you have a superior position.

Incidentally, OMF, I note that you have switched sides since the last time this topic was debated.

Originally posted on: 15-Oct-2005, 16:33 GMT

OMF wrote:This is a fair and noble objective, but the big question that still remains is why Yui must initiate Third Impact in order to do so.

Yui isn't the one who initiates the process, she just takes the wheel at the very end. As for why she does that, I think I covered that in my previous post - that enables her to destroy all angelic matter left on earth.

In this sense, perhaps Ritsuko is referring to the Chamber of Guf in a truely metaphorical sense. There is simply no soul anywhere that can be imbued into the Rei's except for Lilith's. So in a real sense though there may be souls available, there may as well be none for the purposes of Nerv.

I kinda like your thinking here. I'm quite convinced that both the Moons are referred to as Chambers of Guf because they're both places where biological life originated, but in regards to what Ritsuko babbles in ep. #23, I'm not that sure about anything. A few issues though:

- It is basically a given fact that Nerv cannot create souls. Would that be a point worth mentioning here, amongst all these great revelations?
- The real problem: Why would they want to imbue Rei with any other soul than Lilith's? What purpose would something like that serve? I sure as hell can't see any reason why they would want to give her an angel's soul, even if they had a source from where to extract one.

Of course, this ties in with the debate of how accidental / intentional Rei's creation was in the first place...

Soluzar wrote:You may not agree with Dr. Nick, and in this instance, I cannot say that I do, but you must agree that there is little to be gained from further debate.

What is the point about which your views differ from mine? This topic has branched out quite a lot (as usual) and sometimes it's a bit difficult for me to follow all the different ideas presented.

Originally posted on: 16-Oct-2005, 08:03 GMT

Dr. Nick wrote:What is the point about which your views differ from mine? This topic has branched out quite a lot (as usual) and sometimes it's a bit difficult for me to follow all the different ideas presented.

I tend to think that 3I would have happened no matter what. Even if SEELE never existed. That's a view which I will be forced to recant if evidence is presented to me, I don't hold it as an unshakeable dogma, but it was always my impression.

You stated that you believe 3I is not inevitable. I thought it was spelled out clearly that it was.

Originally posted on: 16-Oct-2005, 03:52 GMT

Soluzar wrote:Incidentally, OMF, I note that you have switched sides since the last time this topic was debated.

I have? We debated this before? There are definable sides!? In any event, I am determined that my view remain open on all topics. Sufficient evidence will sway me to any logical argument. But I digress.

Dr. Nick wrote:You need to think why Yui does what she does. She is determined to permanently solve all the problems created by the presence of angelic matter on earth. For that she needs those godly powers only the process of 3I can grant her. She's a logical woman of science, not John Rambo.

Sorry. I missed this one. However...

Destroying all angelic matter and thwarting SEELE might be a necessary conditions for Yui to initiate Third Impact, but are they sufficient? Third Impact is by any standards a pretty drastic measure, and if simply removing all angelic matter is the primary reason, when all this matter could in theory be blasted off in rockets into the sun, then Yui's actions seem a little like overkill.

On top of this, it would seem fairly unlikely that SEELE would simply initiate complementation for its own sake. While quasi-religious fanatasism is no doubt a factor, I suspect that SEELE also had some other, more practical, motives. After all consider the risk. These are practical men, as is evidenced by their monetary concerns. I feel strongly that something else besides blind hope is driving them.

All sides seem to want Third Impact to take place. SEELE for complementation, Yui/Fuyutsuki for some other purposes. What's clear from the scale of Third Impact, is that it is not something that can be entered into lightly.

Some overriding dilemma, for which Third Impact is the only answer, would give a driving force to all parties and a certain inevitability to Third Impact. It would otherwise seem very strange that such drastic actions would be taken when there seem no need of doing so. The explicitly mentioned declining birth rate could be viewed as pointing to a symptom of some overriding dilemma.

Originally posted on: 16-Oct-2005, 16:13 GMT

OMF wrote:I have? We debated this before? There are definable sides!? In any event, I am determined that my view remain open on all topics. Sufficient evidence will sway me to any logical argument. But I digress.

Yes, we debated this before. On Eva Monkey. You took a position that was clearly opposed to the one you take now. I would also add that stating that you are open-minded does not make it so.

Originally posted on: 16-Oct-2005, 21:12 GMT

Sorry for the late reply. School, laziness, robot cosplaying, the usual stuff.

OMF wrote:Destroying all angelic matter and thwarting SEELE might be a necessary conditions for Yui to initiate Third Impact, but are they sufficient? Third Impact is by any standards a pretty drastic measure, and if simply removing all angelic matter is the primary reason, when all this matter could in theory be blasted off in rockets into the sun, then Yui's actions seem a little like overkill.

Drastic, yes, but also the only option available. Yui and Fuyutsuki are but two persons. What chances would they have had against an immensely powerful death cult?

On top of this, it would seem fairly unlikely that SEELE would simply initiate complementation for its own sake. While quasi-religious fanatasism is no doubt a factor, I suspect that SEELE also had some other, more practical, motives. After all consider the risk. These are practical men, as is evidenced by their monetary concerns. I feel strongly that something else besides blind hope is driving them.

It is true that Seele doesn't appear to have a very rational motive for what they're doing. But we must remember that they are religious lunatics. Somewhat non-typical, ostensibly practical religious lunatics, but religious lunatics nonetheless, and such people are fundamentally fueled by their ideals alone.

Some overriding dilemma, for which Third Impact is the only answer, would give a driving force to all parties and a certain inevitability to Third Impact.

Yes it would, but it is certainly not required. The elements make sense without adding any extra factors to the mix.

The explicitly mentioned declining birth rate could be viewed as pointing to a symptom of some overriding dilemma.

And I've pointed out a major flaw in this idea.

Originally posted on: 04-Nov-2005, 22:04 GMT