Angel, Eva, and Seed Gender

For discussion of and submissions for the EvaGeeks Wiki and Commentary. Open to all posters.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:43 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:beings which we are not even sure have such a concept.


So, what gender are superhumanly intelligent computer programs? That's the first of the usages I cited.
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Postby V » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:53 pm

for the moment, I'm calling Seeds of Life and Evas "She" and Angels "it" and we can decide on this later....
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:39 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:My opinion: Either "the angel", it, or "ve" with an explanation regarding the term attached.

No pronouns is unnatural English. I'd sooner go with "it", much as it saddens me.

On Adam / Lilith: I can relent to the "she" concept, but it's not my favorite. "She" and "He" are used to distinguish between sexual creatures.

In my years of experience with the English language, usage was never that stringent.

The matter of biological sex would be addressed in the relevant theory page(s). (Who wants to tackle that monstrosity? Har har har.)

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:02 pm

Reichu wrote:
The matter of biological sex would be addressed in the relevant theory page(s). (Who wants to tackle that monstrosity? Har har har.)
I wouldn't mind tackling some of the theory page, as I think I work better in theories than definitives.

In regards to the gender of the Seeds it should be a pretty straightforward manner. Other than the fact that they're able to produce offspring, there's little in the series to suggest this happens in a sexual manner, so it's likely they are asexual. I think a simple "We don't have a clue what the hell they are" (but dressed up in fancy words so we appear all smart and stuff) would suffice.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:15 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I wouldn't mind tackling some of the theory page, as I think I work better in theories than definitives.

Wha, you mean you don't want to write any "dry" stuff?

In regards to the gender of the Seeds it should be a pretty straightforward manner.

THIS IS NGE NOTHING IS STRAIGHTFORWARD.

Besides, you're talking about their sex, which is technically a different thing than "gender". Calling mother-entities "she" for aesthetic/whatever purposes is legal.

Majority are in favor of "she" anyway, so this one is probably closed.

Since there doesn't seem to be any sweeping support for blessed GNPs, I don't seem to have much of a choice but put a stamp on "its" for Angels #3~#16. :axeman:

But, uh, what happens when, say, random stuff I've written on Angels gets adapted into Wiki-content or something? Does it get neutered? DOES ARMISAEL BECOME A THING?!? :spout:

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:42 pm

Reichu wrote:Wha, you mean you don't want to write any "dry" stuff?
No, I don't mean that at all. I just feel that the more ambiguous theory aspects are my strength (as well as articles, analysis and essays and the ideas I addressed above). I don't mind working on the cut-and-dry stuff at all.

Reichu wrote:THIS IS NGE NOTHING IS STRAIGHTFORWARD.
Which makes writing a definitive encyclopedia on it all the more difficult. *sigh*

Reichu wrote:Besides, you're talking about their sex, which is technically a different thing than "gender".
Technically, yes. But only in the most technically technical aspect.

Reichu wrote:Calling mother-entities "she" for aesthetic/whatever purposes is legal. Majority are in favor of "she" anyway, so this one is probably closed.
Absolutely, and I'm in favor of "she" too - if for no other reason than ease. I'm just saying we need something that addresses the "technicalities" of this issue.

Reichu wrote:But, uh, what happens when, say, random stuff I've written on Angels gets adapted into Wiki-content or something?
That's a good question. We all have our own quirks when addressing things within NGE, and coming to a consensus on what to use when working on Wiki may be the toughest part of the preliminary process. I won't even bring up my own Lance / Spear hangup... :devil:
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Dr. Nick » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:02 pm

Reichu wrote:Since there doesn't seem to be any sweeping support for blessed GNPs, I don't seem to have much of a choice but put a stamp on "its" for Angels #3~#16. :axeman:


You gotta think like a translator: something's always lost in the process. And the Wiki should be a translation from Geekenese to English.

Besides, you're talking about their sex, which is technically a different thing than "gender".


Steven Pinker disagrees with your definition. I think.

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Postby Katayoku no Tenshi » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:28 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:Steven Pinker disagrees with your definition. I think.

Useful... We'll have to take your word on that I guess, :think: I've always worked under the assumption that Gender = Mind (soul w/e) Sex = Body. Edit: By that I mean out side of the NGE fandom too.

Since there doesn't seem to be any sweeping support for blessed GNPs, I don't seem to have much of a choice but put a stamp on "its" for Angels #3~#16.
Either that or make every Ve in the Wiki link to a page about GNPs. I like Ve ... but it did confuse me for a long time. Obfuscation (Obscurification?) should be avoided. :dejected:
Last edited by Katayoku no Tenshi on Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:01 am

Gender is a grammatical construct (like tables being feminine in French and Latin).

Sex is the biological state (even if body and body-image mismatch).

And any specialist field will accumulate jargon for conciseness of language.
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Postby Dr. Nick » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:40 pm

Katayoku no Tenshi wrote:Useful... We'll have to take your word on that I guess, :think: I've always worked under the assumption that Gender = Mind (soul w/e) Sex = Body. Edit: By that I mean out side of the NGE fandom too.


It was just an observation, BTW, I'm not trying to get anyone to alter their posting habits: for our purposes a distinction between biological and metaphysical domains is genuinely useful.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:49 am

Maybe the simplest thing would be like Eva Yojimbo said- refer to Adam and Lilith as 'she', Kaworu as 'he', and try doing the rest of the angels up as either 'the angel' or use the angel's name. I guess repetitiveness could be avoided by grammatical structure and writing style.

For example: "Sachiel, the third angel, is a monstrous, vaguely humanlike creature, with a bird-like mask or face where the head should be. The angel possesses a fairly strong AT field and has the related ability to lift off and hover a short distance. Underwater propulsion is provided by oversized gills seen on the thigh. Compared to the other angels, Sachiel is well-rounded for combat, the ulnas of the forearms being used as ramming/impaling "Lances of Light". The second mask (After the N2 mine hit) has a powerful energy weapon in its eye structures. "

Does the way this passage is written sound okay? (I know that there already is a Sachiel writeup in place but I think the Angel writeups need some serious cleaning)

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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:15 am

UrsusArctos wrote:try doing the rest of the angels up as either 'the angel' or use the angel's name. I guess repetitiveness could be avoided by grammatical structure and writing style.

It's your call when you're writing. I remember how Mr. Tines did something similar in his forum posts whenever Kaworu came up (:lol:). Other people will probably consider it a hassle, though. The policies/guidelines can always say, "'It', with the possibility of doing such-and-such, because we don't want to use 'it' if we can avoid... it."

Does the way this passage is written sound okay?

Seems alright; if anything comes across as overly awkward, my Red Pen of Doom can always come into play.

(I know that there already is a Sachiel writeup in place but I think the Angel writeups need some serious cleaning)

Go all out, babe. BE DARING. Use your knowledge. Make articles awesome. YOU HAVE THE POWAH!!! (Okay, I already used that one on Jimbo, but no matter...)

BTW, plural of "ulna" is "ulnae". </anatomy nerd mode> ;)

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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:01 am

Reichu wrote: YOU HAVE THE POWAH!!! (Okay, I already used that one on Jimbo, but no matter...)


Heh, I have to wait for V to send an invite to my email address...I didn't misspell it in that PM of mine did I? :oops:

BTW, plural of "ulna" is "ulnae". </anatomy nerd mode> ;)


Thanks!


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